Is Fishers Island overrated?

[Bob_Huntley]

BobH:

What a cool story of you and Palmer. I think I told one on here that was almost identical about Tiger and a guy from RCD. If not I'll tell it to you again.

Tom,

Please tell it again.

Bob

[Donnie Beck]

Based on my personal rating criteria as above, I consider Piping Rock and The Creek to be about as good as Fishers Island.  

Chipcoat,

I may be a little biased here but I am going to have to disagree based on the criteria you laid out. If anything Fishers should rate higher according to your criteria. First off many will say that the reason Fishers doesn’t have many fairway bunkers is because Raynor died during construction. I couldn’t disagree with that opinion more. If you look closely at the routing you will see that Raynor used natural landforms instead of fairway bunkers on many holes at Fishers. You have forced carries off the tee on every hole at Fishers. Upon closer inspection you will find that the distance required to carry is typically the same distance you would find cross bunkering at other Raynor/Macdonald courses.

The 3rd is a perfect example if you look at placement and angles of the fairway you will find that his use of the natural landform is absolutely brilliant. This could quite possibly be the best short par 4 in the country.

The 4th another forced carry. Notice the preferred line down the right side of the fairway providing a glimpse of the punchbowl around the Alps. Any shot center or left of the fwy is completely blind.

The 7th notice the angle of the green up in the distance. The preferred line is definitely to the right side of the fairway. Notice the angle of the carry created during construction.
When I get time I will take some pictures to show you other examples.

As far as templates go the hurricane of 38’ knocked the beach club into the pond on the 1st hole. The Redan is no more than 30 yards from the beach club so it safe to say that it sustained substantial damage in the hurricane. I have been told by older members that the slope was not rebuilt to its original height. There is some talk about having Gil come in and rebuild the kicker slope.

 Other than the Redan and possibly the short the other template holes are all world class.

Take the scenery away and the course holds up quite favorably to those mentioned earlier. Add the setting and scenery and is it over rated? Not a chance and quite possibly UNDER RATED!

[JC Jones]

The gospel according to Beck!!  I'm sold.

[ChipOat]

Donnie Beck:

Now, hold on there!  I never said anything negative about Fishers (unless you consider anything less than outright worship to be negative - which I don't).  However, I confess that I had you in mind when I slapped that title on my thread in order to get the maximum number of responses.  What fun is it to put up a thread that nobody cares about?  In fact, the thread has been up for several days, now.  Where the hell have you been?

I will say that I disagree on two points of your post.

First, I interpret you opening paragraph as a firm statement that you pretty plainly think my criteria for evaluating Fishers' golf course (all golf courses??) is flawed.  You're entitled to your criteria just as I'm entitled to mine.  Let's agree to disagree.

Second, you are basically making the case that FI is a better golf course than PRC or The Creek.  Again, you're entitled to your opinion and your criteria as I am entitled to mine.

For all the reasons that are already on this thread (including yours), I happen to find FI more APPEALING to play and more FUN to play than almost any course in the world.   That wasn't the point of my thread - and it still isn't.

If I had titled the thread, "Are Some Golf Courses Overrated?" and just used FI as a possible example, nobody would have noticed or cared.  Also, we would never have known that the original Redan at FI sounds like a damn good one and, better yet, it may soon be restored to its former glory.  Finally, I doubt that we would have had the pleasure of seeing the pictures you posted PLUS THE PICTURES YOU HAVE NOW PROMISED TO POST VERY VERY SOON!

Incidentally, since you appear to be one of the few people that have played all three courses and, better, that you've studied all three of them closely for all the right reasons, how about some brief commentary on PRC and TC?
 
See how well this is working out?

Tom Paul:

I still have a couple of those rings in one of my old golf bags somewhere although I haven't used it in years - not since I went from 60+ rounds/year to about 15 (max).  Coincidentally, they were both given to me by the clubmaker I knew at the Spalding factory in Chicopee, MA (now closed, I think) - maybe they were extra's that your father didn't need.  Since I can't hit a bull in the ass with a bass fiddle, anymore, what difference does it make whether my Pro V1's are round or not?

[Sean_A]

Fishers is one of those courses I never paid much attention to because of its exclusive nature - why get all jacked up about a course you will never see - right?  However, Donnie's description of the use of landforms intrigued me because this is something I really like to see in courses.  I went and looked at Ran's profile and was stunned by what I saw.  The course looks absolutely marvelous. 

Thanks Donnie for making me dream beyond my reality!  It looks like there can be few better places to keep the green.

Ciao

 

[Donnie Beck]

Chipcoat,

I understand your point and it is a fair argument. Unfortunately working 60 hrs per week and being newly married has drastically cut into golfing, fishing, and posting time. Maybe in a few weeks I will have some more time to debate with you. The reason I decided to post was because I believe Fishers is misunderstood architecturally and it is definitely worthy of discussion.

[Tom MacWood]

Donnie
I take it that last photo was taken during construction. One thing that stands out in that picture are the horses being used as opposed to something larger and mechanized. Do you know if large steam shovels and such were used during construction? I would've thought they could have easily been transported to the island in 1926, but who knows, maybe not. The horse power would seem to fit with the reliance on natural landforms for hazards off the tee and the natural green locations.

[Matt_Ward]

Chip:

I can understand your take -- personally I don't see FI as being one of the 25 best courses in the USA but the issue you raised merits some serious discussion. If you see FI as being elevated too highly among the elite of the USA's best courses then I would agree with you.

However ...

Land -- is for me at least, the key ingredient that separates the very special courses from those at lower levels.

Clearly, the people responsible for siuch stellar layouts sought out unique pieces of property that would serve to ELEVATE what could possibly be done with the actual design. In sum -- the land provides for that opportunity. No doubt some courses will have quality layouts but without a land site that accentuates the design the rest can be a bit less so. I chuckle when people say how good would Pebble Beach be without the H20 or if Sand Hills were not in such an isolated area. All such talk makes for interesting 19th hole banter but one cannot divorce such matters so easily.

For me the land equation represents no less than 60% of the overall qualities tied to what makes a given site so special and meriting return play.

FI clearly has the land internally and part and parcel of quality land / sites is how such land ties into the off-course elements. Let me point out that on-course land elements -- as others have mentioned -- clearly are crucial and remain the first among equals -- but one cannot simply divorce and think of such courses from a tunnel perspective when other elements are also there.

I agree that many people simply look at the off course vistas and then proclaim that such courses are indeed spectacular. If anything I would say that on-course land /design elements constitute a healthy proportion of the discussion for me -- but I also weigh in the other elements I mentioned.

If you are saying is FI worthy of top 25 status in the USA -- I would agree with you and say no. Is it still deserving of high acclaim -- there's little doubt in my book that anyone getting the opportunity should hustle to the ferry at New London and get there pronto.

[Bill Brightly]

I'd be interested to hear from Donnie on how big a factor the wind is at FI on a day-to-day basis. I imagine that there are very few days without a significant wind, and many days when it is a HUGE factor.

I think wind is an underrated factor when people discuss courses. You can't see it or take beautiful pictures of it, but it absolutely changes the game. So I think good course architecture requires less dramatic design elements, perhaps "easier" set ups such as wider fairways, when the site is prone to high winds.

Having just played in Ireland, I am particularly sensitive to this. For example, do you really need a series of fairways bunkers to further challenge the golfer when he is driving into a prevailing 20-30 mph crosswind? So courses on really good sites may well require less man-made hazards, and thus "suffer" when people discuss "what is on the land."

Whaddya think?

[Mike Sweeney]

Having just played in Ireland, I am particularly sensitive to this. For example, do you really need a series of fairways bunkers to further challenge the golfer when he is driving into a prevailing 20-30 mph crosswind? So courses on really good sites may well require less man-made hazards, and thus "suffer" when people discuss "what is on the land."

Whaddya think?

Bill,

My question with these threads is overrated where? In the US, no Fishers is not overrated due to all the factors mentioned. It is probably a Top 5 and definitely a Top 10 on my personal list.

My question is, is it overrated in the World? Or after your trip to Ireland, would it make a Top 10 list if it was in Ireland or the UK? I have not played enough overseas to really know.

After the recent Buda threads, I know I want to find out more about courses overseas.

[Bill Brightly]

Mike,

I really do not like like ranking courses, but rather, I prefer to talk about the good and bad of each hole/each course.

My personal top 5 changed twice in Ireland!

Ranking great courses is like ranking beautiful women. I'm far more interested in playing as many as I can rather than RANKING them, and the one I'm lucky enough to be with at the moment has a HUGE advantage over the ones that said good bye to me or the ones I can't ever meet!

Having said that, I guess my personal top 10 played is

National
Royal County Down
Merion
Oakmont
Pine Valley
Ballybunion
Ballyliffin Od
Pebble Beach
Royal Portrush
Ridgewood


I have NOT played Fishers and I hated to leave Pinehurst # 2, Garden City, Plainfield and Stone Eagle off my list.

[Jim_Kennedy]

I don't see FI as being one of the 25 best courses in the USA

If you were to put stock in rankings there are really only 3 that have enough panelists to give them any merit, and they all place FI in their top 25 (8th in one). You may not like it enough to do so but your credibility takes a big hit when you are so far afield of the majority view.

Sorry Matt

[Matt_Ward]

Jim:

So be it.

I've done my fair share of traveling to have a sense on how courses of different types match up to one another.

Let's not forget that major pubs have erred in their own rights over the last number of years with the inclusion of certain courses too. Where is Kingsley with Digest ? Where is Black Mesa with Golfweek -- dropping 50 positions behind Paa-Ko ?

If we are all to march to the beat of the same drummer -- then what would be there to any blog site or any 19th hole discussion.

You make it sound like a course that is rated somewhere between 25-40th position is piss poor from my perspective. Not the least -- I have a huge amount of respect for the layout but I see other courses as being more noteworthy as I define them to be.

Just my opinion -- happy to discuss with you and anyone else for that matter.

[TEPaul]

Chipperino:

I've read your posts with interest about what you consider to be "golf course architecture" compared to what you apparently don't. So let me ask you a question----do you consider it architecture the way a golf architect chooses to use some existing land formations without altering them at all as much as you consider it architecture what he actually makes or moves or changes with land formations?

[TEPaul]

Chip:

So we can know precisely where you're coming from on this thread about FI, The Creek and Piping Rock, why don't you try to identify those holes on any of them you don't think exactly measure up to snuff for some reason and perhaps also explain what type of architectural snuff could be utilized to improve them to be snuffed up to some ideal.

If you do I will do the same because God knows I sure am familiar with all those three courses.

[Paul Richards]

The answer to your question is a resounding "NO"!

FI is one of the best.  Period.

 

[Bill Brightly]

If my memory is correct, I think Raynor did 3 routings on 3 separate parts of the island. I think the founders selected two sites with the intention of building 36 holes but never went ahead with building the second course.

This got me wondering if Raynor would have built two Redans, two Shorts, two Road Holes, etc.

Did Raynor or Macdonald ever build any 27 or 36 hole courses? I don't think so, so we may be left wondering.

[Donnie Beck]

Tom,

I have a 13 or 14 construction photos and none show any signs of a steam shovel. There are pictures of a large air compressor connected to a jackhammer chipping rocks and a large pump dredging fill for the 13,14,and 16th hole.  Several of the pictures show horses being used to construct greens, grade fairways, and various other tasks.

Bill,

Wind is definitely a factor at Fishers. It is one the greatest assets of the course. You can play the course on two consecutive days and hit completely different shots. A typical summer day is about two clubs of wind. Spring and fall can get almost unplayable if you catch the wrong day. Take the 165yd Eden for example. I hit the ball longer than most and the hole for me plays anywhere from PW-3 iron depending on wind.

Chipcoat,

Some more pics as promised.

18th Tee Shot
It is hard to tell from the picture but look closely at the angle the bank fall away at. Notice the bailout to the left, which leave a safe (shorter route to the fairway). Again the picture doesn't do it justice but the preferred angle is down the right side and the carry is substantially longer. Pretty good architecture in my book.


The 17th again the same situation off the tee. Bailout to the right. Again similar distance off the tee as typical cross bunkering.


Not much of a carry to reach the fairway but notice the preferred line over the dune. Notice how the fwy runs away from the dune forcing any tee shot that doesn't challenge the dune to the left side.

Angle into the green from just over the dune. It is a much different look and shot from the left side.


A different look at #12 Reverse redan from the 15th tee.


Cool topography parts of holes 11,12,13,14


#14 although not a true cape it still quite an interesting hole. A tee ball down the right side of the fwy is close to 50 yds longer to the green compared to an equally hit ball down the left side.

[JC Jones]

Great Stuff Donnie, thanks for sharing.

These pictures are really starting to show me how "template" architecture does not mean the same result for every hole on every golf course.  Thank you for the education.

[Jim_Kennedy]

Matt,

Glaring omissions of new(er) golf courses are going to happen and there may be reasons, such as too few plays, why a course gets overlooked.

I like the idea of marching to the beat of a different drum, however, I think your opinions will start to carry less weight if you're going to be the guy on the dance floor doing the cha-cha when everyone else knows its a tango.

That would not be the case if you were an ordinary citizen, but you aren't.

Just my opinion.

[Matt_Ward]

Jim:

Thanks for your comments ... I hear the dance musice really well -- but the tune being played is slightly off key.

Let me name a few that would be ahead of Fisher's Island in my opinion -- how bout for starters the likes of Ballyneal and Rock Creek? I just recently played one of the finest Jack Nicklaus courses I have ever played in Red Ledges just outside of Salt Lake City and frankly few people pay heed to Team Nicklaus and even more so if the layout is located in UT. By the way I like Muirfield Village but its reputation is geared from who Jack is and the nature of an annual tournament played there.

I understand your comments on the omission of new courses but the ratings from the key pubs needs to be ahead of the curve in a number of instances -- not behind them.

I mentioned before the likes of Kingsley Club -- which Digest is completely oblivious of the quality of that course. How it has not found a home in their top 100 ratings astounds me when you see what else is already rated ahead of it. Kingsley, in my mind, is a bonfide top 50 course in the USA and could be even higher if I really studied the pros and cons of it.

Jim, I have mega respect for Fisher's Island but it's not the 8th best layout in the USA from the totality of top tier courses I have played. If others feel that way -- it's likely they have not played such a wide assortment of courses. In New York alone -- Winged Foot / West would be ahead of it in my mind. I have not played Friar's Head to date and most people I have talked to who have played both would have the C&C layout ahead of it. Ditto my passionate support for what Doak / Nicklaus did with Sebonack.

Let me point out Rees Jones is often thrown under the bus on this site -- but he did a superlative job with a layout just outside of Albany, NY called Olde Kinderhook and it gets zippo attention from a range of people. Those who have played it are surprised at its overall qualities.

Jim, I simply weighed in that for me Fisher's Island would likely be in the neighborhood of 26-40th -- you make it sound like I tossed the place completely aside. Frankly, there are a number of really superb recently opened courses (in the last 10-15 years) that can make a serious case for either higher status or being rated among the elite groupings altogether.

One final thing -- if you want to highlight a really good comparison -- ask youself this -- how does a stellar place like Eastward Ho! rate that far behind Fisher's Island? I'd have to think that a number of raters were swayed by the ferry ride to the NY-based course and the all-too-powerful allure of the marvelous vistas you get when playing there.

Fisher's Island is no doubt a must play for any person lucky enough to secure an opportunity to play there -- but in looking at what Chip started this thread with -- I would say the current ratings position of FI is slightly higher than I would have among the courses I have played.

[Jim_Kennedy]

Matt,
I think that I already knew you didn't see FI in the same vein as some of the other rankings. That's the beauty of having more than one person rank courses, the only good data is consensus data.

I don't begrudge you your position, I'm only saying that I think it makes you look less credulous. You are free to dismss that observation. 

[ed_getka]

Donnie,
   Thanks for sharing the pix. If you could post the other construction pix somehow that would be awesome. The one construction picture of #7 is interesting. How much has that hole changed since the course was built? Were the water hazards present left and right of the fairway when the course opened?
   #12 is my favorite hole at FI, I just love that reverse redan green. #10 is another very interesting hole that at first glance doesn't seem to offer my challenge. I look forward to learning more of the subtleties of the holes.

[Wayne Freeman]

I played 36 at Fishers today............  we had a typical windy for this time of the year day.... 2-2 1/2 clubs with a sprinkling of rain.  The course is apparently in about the finest shape its been in for years and all I can say is that after my 3rd trip there I can't wait to get back.  It is one of the true joys of golf to experience this gem of a golf course........ a wonderful architectural masterpiece weaved into a splendid piece of land.  The views are fabulous and there are so many all world holes...   there is plenty of challenge especially on the back nine where so many holes are directly into the wind.  I've played Creek and Piping both of which I love,  but you just can't put them above Fishers because you can't discount the setting and how well the golf course fits into the land forms. 
   It's a shame that FI is so inaccessible for so many people and still so relatively unknown. In Calif. very few people have even heard of it.  But that's the way they want it.  To join the club, you have to own a piece of property on the island and then it's at least a 7 year wait to get in.  250 people live there full time.   
         Is Fishers overrated-   no way.  It's in my top 5  all time.               

[Matt_Ward]

Jim:

I've been called worse !

Let me put it this way -- I would not trade my experiences with many people on this site.

I don't believe in "consensus" assessments. You say "the only good data is consensus data." Rubbish. Consensus ratings from the major pubs fails because you can have a hodge-podge of different people throwing their findings together and then producing some outcome which is all lumped together. It's simplistic and easy to provide a mathematical forumla but it does little in really providing for some common cross comparisons and contrasts.

Jim, help me to understand something -- how does me placing FI somewher between 25-40 make me seem out of touch? Might it be the other way around -- that those who view it the other way -- are simply elevating the place a bit too high. I would have hoped you would have seen a few examples of different courses I have previously mentioned that were not either considered for placement by the major pubs or were simply not rated at all -- e.g. most notably Kingsley by Digest. FI is a wonderful place but if anyone seriously believes that a place like WF / West is behind it -- then the ferry ride and glorious views from the course are simply overwhelming the senses of such folks, with all due respect.

Jim, when I read that people have FI in their overall top five or top ten -- that's fine -- for them. I don't know how many other top 100 courses they have played so it's possible that their overall love for FI is based on a smaller sample size of top tier layouts.