Is Fishers Island overrated?

[TEPaul]

"As to the practice of buying a couple of sleeves of brand new Spalding Dot's or Dunlop Maxfli's to knock out into Peconic Bay, those guys were running in Tom Paul's heavy money crowd.  My friends and I would keep a few shag balls in our bag to use for that purpose and kept our new balata Titleist's for the golf course."


Chip:

That thing about buying a new sleeve of balls and driving them into Peconic Bay is just the way Knott and Grant were. No way my Dad would do something like that. Matter of fact, one time my dad told me he heard about some place in the middle of the Island that was selling balls for about $2.00 less per dozen and he told me we should go down there and buy about a gross. I said: "For God Sake Dad we will burn up more than the savings in gas just getting there." He said: "Good point" and that was the end of it. That's how cheap (excuse me, FRUGAL) we are. No way you would see my dad hitting a new sleeve into Peconic Bay.

[Patrick_Mucci]

If I had just one round to play and that was the end of it there is no question at all that it would be NGLA!

And if that was the case it would complete a remarkable bookend to a life of golf because I believe the first 18 hole round of golf I ever played was at NGLA. I was just a kid and it was with my father (a really good player), James Knott (a real curmudgeon and excellent player) and Bobby Grant (another world class character and great all around athlete).

There is no way I can forget that first round at NGLA with those three-----MY GOD was I scared!!  

PS:
I will also never forget how Grant and Knott went into the pro shop, bought a sleeve of new golf balls each and proceeded to drive all six right into Peconic Bay from the tips. Then they turned around and were ready to go. I don't think they even allow that odd (and to me back then oddly arrogant) practice anymore!

TEPaul,

Tom Watson did the same thing when he played there with Terry McBride not too long ago.
I've seen a few people do it.

[Patrick_Mucci]

ditto....I would be equally curious Tom....as I would to hear Patrick's answer to the same question?

MWP,

It's the same answer.

NGLA

[Rich Goodale]

Pat and Tom

When I lived at Half Moon Bay (CA) in the mid-late 80's, as there wasn't a nearby driving range, a lot of us playing in the early morning would warm up by driving backwards of the 1st tee, over the 10th tee and the tennis club and across the 18th towards the Pacific.  Of course, we were not as affluent as the NGLAites, so we used already well-cut balatas....

rich

[TEPaul]

MWP:

What the hell, if I had one last round and that was it I would like not just to play it at NGLA but to play it with Pat. Golf is funny that way----we've probably only known each other for a dozen years but as these things sometimes turn out we've had a lot of experiences with the same people over the years without actually knowing each other and the additionally interesting thing is it apparently went back a generation before us. Both our dads were good national amateurs and given all the things they played in and where they played there is absolutely no way they could not have known each other and run into one another even if Pat and I never knew it. For us and probably because of and with our fathers too, golf really is more than just a game, it's kind of like a way of life for us as it was for our fathers before us. Even if I stop playing like my dad did some years before he died it will always very much be there.

[TEPaul]

Chip Oat said something in post #49 that some of the younger people on here might have a hard time believing and a harder time visualizing and that is that back in the day before ranges were that common and club practice balls were far less common, players warmed up on ranges with their own practice balls that they hit to their caddies who were out there on the range shagging for them. This kind of thing even went on in the early professional tournaments.

I guarantee you it would be a shock for the younger set on here to visualize a range where you had a dozen or two players hitting their own balls to their own indivudual caddies out there shagging for them. Can you imagine what that must have been like for a dozen or more caddies out on a range trying to keep track of their player's ball and avoid getting hit by somebody else's?  

But that's the way it was sometimes back in the day.



When I was a kid (and my older brother before me) I used to shag almost every day in the summer for my dad. We would do it on the far end of the range at Piping (because no one on the regular teeing area of the range could hit it way out there on the back of that PR range). We would actually pretty much catch everything on the fly with a first baseman's mitt (you better get it in the netting because if you caught it in the palm you could break your hand ). Some of the time we did it on the place next door to our place because our neighbor had about twenty acres he turned into a turf nursery. Since I didn't really play golf myself back then it never really occured to me, I guess, how good my dad must have been because no matter what club he was hitting (from a SW to a driver) he would not only practice hitting every club up to six different ways (low fade, high fade, low draw, high draw, low straight, high straight) but it was also pretty rare when I would have to move more than 2-3 steps to field the shot!

[Jud_T]

or, god forbid, shagging their own balls....

[JMEvensky]

MWP:

What the hell, if I had one last round and that was it I would like not just to play it at NGLA but to play it with Pat. Golf is funny that way----we've probably only known each other for a dozen years but as these things sometimes turn out we've had a lot of experiences with the same people over the years without actually knowing each other and the additionally interesting thing is it apparently went back a generation before us. Both our dads were good national amateurs and given all the things they played in and where they played there is absolutely no way they could not have known each other and run into one another even if Pat and I never knew it. For us and probably because of and with our fathers too, golf really is more than just a game, it's kind of like a way of life for us as it was for our fathers before us. Even if I stop playing like my dad did some years before he died it will always very much be there.

I've always thought that best thing about golf is the relationships with other golfers.Everything about the game is great but the camaraderie among guys with a shared interest/appreciation is the best part,IMO.I doubt Tiger Woods shares my opinion.

BTW-if this game happens,first dibs on caddying.For either of you.

[Michael Wharton-Palmer]

TP I understand 100%....a away of life indeed.

In the past I have sometimes allowed that part to be too important, but a reality check is sometimes all that is needed to remind one of ones mistakes...
we love this game for so many reasons, and one of those is the memories that venues inspire...and the people with which those venues were shared....clearly I have to make a visit to NGLA...



AND BY THE WAY

Every monday evening, I go out to the club and shag my own balls...just like in the old days

[TEPaul]

"or, god forbid, shagging their own balls...."

Jud:

That's the way I'd do it when I first learned to practice on the place next door that had about 20 acres of turf nursery. I'd take my bag of 100 balls hit them out there, go collect them, bring them back, hit 'em again, go collect them, hit 'em again and over and over again!

[TEPaul]

"I've always thought that best thing about golf is the relationships with other golfers.Everything about the game is great but the camaraderie among guys with a shared interest/appreciation is the best part,IMO.I doubt Tiger Woods shares my opinion."


Jeff:

I've heard that Tiger is pretty much just one of the guys and it seems like that's the way he likes it. A key might be all those cute little names he has for so many players.

But you're right indeed, it can be a really special camaradarie in golf and I think tournament golf is what really brings it out particularly for the guys who play a lot together both locally, regionally and nationally year after year. For me it was GAP, Pa Golf Assoc, and the invitationals all over the place were so amazing that way, and for my dad it was Florida State Assoc., NY's Met, the USGA and all those invitationals all over the place----eg you tended to see a lot of the same guys and play with them a number of times a year no matter where you were. It sure does create life-long camaraderie.

But in the interest of full disclosure I guess one would have to say it had its risks and downsides too. My dad traveled all over the place for decades playing tournaments as much as a professional tour player did. Those guys used to hang out together and they could get pretty crazy the way they carried on and screwed around. I know it always made my mother nervous even if she never admitted it to us children. And in the end it did their marriage in. Dad met my stepmother at some fancy invitational somewhere in New England but in the end I loved her too. Interesting my own mother and my step mother never really had anything to do with golf themselves as far as really playing it----they had their own strong separate interests and both were very strong and willful women but neither of them ever tried to stop my dad from playing the way he did all over the place all those years. Obviously they knew too that it really was a way of life that even they could not stop!

[JMEvensky]

TEP,good stuff and I agree with it all,except about Tiger Woods.My point was just that I doubt that camaraderie is at the very top of his list.

I know some guys who now "tour" as amateurs,as I'm certain you do.My sense is that they kind of understand that they're a link to a past that was balls-to-the-walls fun but not possible today.Too many family commitments,etc. for them to go completely crazy week after week.A very different world from what your dad lived in.

[Bob_Huntley]

Tom,

 Re buying brand new balls and dumping them in the jungle. Here is a post from 2007.

 1  GolfClubAtlas.com / Golf Course Architecture / Re:OT - Arnold Palmer goes to Ndola on: August 16, 2007, 01:17:01 PM 
Started by Philip Gawith, Message by Bob_HuntleyRelevance: 4.9%


Philip,

I responded to this yesterday but was interrupted and forgot to press the' Send' button.

The matches between Palmer and Player in South Africa and the Rhodesias were sponsored by the Coca Cola company. As the Hon. Sec. of the Nchanga G.C. I was hoping we could have it at our course. However, the Nkana G.C. was chosen as Kitwe was centrally located on the Copperbelt between the rail-head, Ndola, and Chingola up near the Belgian Congo border.

I was an official of the Northern Rhodesia Golf Union so had a part in greeting Palmer and Player and had a press pass from the local paper to report on the match, which Palmer won.

I remember Palmer going into the modest golf shop and BUYING two dozen Dunlop 65s. He handed them to the caddie who ripped off the black wrapping and without further ado Arnie hit some of the most vigorous and majestic irons I had ever seen played. They took off like a jet, ascended to the heavens and dropped gently to earth. He left them out there alongside the temporary range and proceeded to the first tee.

 I had witnessed two things at once, an extravagance not seen before and an entirely physical way of playing the game.

Some couple of years later I was having a drink in the bar at The Valley Club of Montecito having watched Palmer and Player tee off against Bob Goalby and Paul Harney. I cannot remember the result. Arnie came in, looked over at me and said "Hello Bob, what are you doing here?" I had engaged him in conversation on another continent some ten thousand miles away but he remembered my name from a conversation that probably lasted less than five minutes.

I think that is one reason he is called 'The King.'


Bob
 
 Reply Reply with quote Notify of replies
 

Pages: [1]

[TEPaul]

"My sense is that they kind of understand that they're a link to a past that was balls-to-the-walls fun but not possible today.Too many family commitments,etc. for them to go completely crazy week after week.A very different world from what your dad lived in."


Jeff:

I agree with you. What you touched on there I think is a huge, complex but totally fascinating subject----eg basically the way the world turns and how differently entire cultures look at and treat the same basic subjects differently and why in different eras. It's not really about golf architecture but it sure was part of some of the overall world of golf and it's a great subject for another time. Even something like the way they looked at health back then---it wasn't that they necessarily didn't care about it less than we do but the way they went about both ends of that candle---particularly smoking and drinking and partying and then attempting to cure themselves, so to speak, was about 180 degrees different than the way most of us look at it and do it today.

[Jud_T]

Apparently, based on the drift in this thread, Fishers Island isn't that overrated.....

[TEPaul]

BobH:

What a cool story of you and Palmer. I think I told one on here that was almost identical about Tiger and a guy from RCD. If not I'll tell it to you again.

[Michael Wharton-Palmer]

Jud,
But the drifting and the stories that one reads from such drifting is what keeps me coming back to this site...so much wonderful experience out there, with such great stories.
Not that messr's TP and Bob are that old, but they represent a generation of this game that will never be repeated...I think og the generation og Palmer, Nicklaus, the 60's and 70's as being the golden age of the game.
It was truly evolving into the big time and the people who were involved in the game at the "elite" level were exposed to stuff that nowadays is behind a curtain.

You could actually be involved in the growth, now it just happens.


That entire enviroment of"wealthy and elite" involvemnet in tha game must have been so exciting to be around.

[Peter Pallotta]

Bob H, TE - thanks much. You gents have wonderfully generous memories - you choose to remember the past with generosity, and then share those memories generously.  Always a great pleasure reading.

Peter
Alas, the only good story I have involves drinking with Harry Dean Stanton in the Viper Room as he sat next to me and sang Georgia on My Mind at 3 in the morning. And I've already told it 3 times!

[Jud_T]

I wasn't criticising the drift in conversation, quite interesting actually, just making a comment...

[JMEvensky]

Jud,
But the drifting and the stories that one reads from such drifting is what keeps me coming back to this site...so much wonderful experience out there, with such great stories.
Not that messr's TP and Bob are that old, but they represent a generation of this game that will never be repeated...I think og the generation og Palmer, Nicklaus, the 60's and 70's as being the golden age of the game.
It was truly evolving into the big time and the people who were involved in the game at the "elite" level were exposed to stuff that nowadays is behind a curtain.

You could actually be involved in the growth, now it just happens.


That entire enviroment of"wealthy and elite" involvemnet in tha game must have been so exciting to be around.

+1000

[Michael Wharton-Palmer]

sorry Jud...
I was not suggesting that you were being critical at all...just relishing the opportunity to exp[ress how the drifts entertain me so....

[ChipOat]

Jud,

Depending on the criteria you use, either it is or it isn't.

I like to strip out view, ambiance, history, reputation, majors held, clubhouse and other such stuff (including how much I enjoy playing the course or just being on the property).  I'm looking at golf courses, not golf PLACES.  It's not about my FAVORITE - it's about what the architect created and, to a lesser degree, how it's been maintained.

Thus, I only like to consider what's on the ground (which includes water that's in play and the architect's use of the prevailing wind).  Nothing else matters (to me, that is).

THEN, I only consider the pure architecture in terms of what I, personally, happen to prefer - much of which I have learned from other people in addition to my own experience.

Based on my personal rating criteria as above, I consider Piping Rock and The Creek to be about as good as Fishers Island.  All three of them are excellent and the question of which one I would choose to play every day is a different question and outside the context of my original thread.

Tom Paul:

Touring pro's hit their own shag balls "back in the day"?  Try until the late-1970's (at least at Whitemarsh for the IVB Philadelphia Golf Classic).  Back when I had time to hang around at those kinds of events, I have filled in for both Hubert Green's and John Miller's caddy during post-round practice sessions on one occasion for each.  HG had a whole shag bag full of nearly-new Spalding Dots and John was on the MacGregor staff.  In the event that a player hit a shot in the direction of another caddy on the range, the caddies looked out for each other although I have to say that, on both occasions, the grizzled veterans on either side of me were less concerned about that in my case than for their peers.

Golf ball companies weren't manufacturing "branded" range balls in those days and the good pro's wouldn't practice with your standard driving range marshmallows which was all that was available at the time.

Fast forward 30+ years: The last time I was at Pine Valley, I got to hit all the 90 compression Titleists (stamped, "PRACTICE") that I wanted.  And that's not a new thing, there.

[TEPaul]

"You could actually be involved in the growth, now it just happens.
That entire enviroment of"wealthy and elite" involvemnet in tha game must have been so exciting to be around."


Michael:

Hmmm, interesting observations. I suspect like anything else there could be some extreme upsides and some extreme downsides too. But what I am sure of is it could get complicated along the way depending on who you're talking about and the way they saw it through their own eyes no matter where they came from. I'm convinced golf can very much be the great leveler if you let it and if you understand some things about it. I would love to see Pat weigh in here because clearly his dad came at golf from a very different direction than my dad did but the thing to consider most, I think, is how they both looked at it and the fact that they both got to the same place eventually in a number of ways, not the least being the level of their play. Both of them were what I might call "line crossers" in some ways I consider to be important (that they get crossed) but at least they both had the guts to do it and the sense to realize they could!

[Jud_T]

chipoat,

While Fisher's is the only one of the three that I've played, I agree completely with your personal rating criteria.  I personally think that the scenery and views is given entirely too much weight in the rating of many of these courses.  Take a slightly above average course and plop it on the ocean and everyone wets their pants while waiting in line to pony up $400 to play it.  Bring in a name architect to do a "signiture" course, plant a bunch of flowers, charge a fortune, make it very exclusive with the fastest putting surfaces this side of linolium and you have another "must play"...

[TEPaul]

Chip:

My dad worked for Spalding ('50s and 60s) and he basically said quality control with most all the manufacturers really sucked back then compared to what we know today. He said with all the tour players on Spalding's staff, PGA and LPGA, all the balls going to them were taken out of the sleeves at Chickopee, Mass, dropped through the ring and only the ones that dropped through well were repackaged and sent out to the tour players. Dad used to keep one of those rings in his golf bag at all times. You haven't seen one of those rings in about the last three decades, have you Chipperino?