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Charlie Goerges

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O.T. How Good was Young Tom?
« on: October 06, 2009, 05:57:35 PM »
I realize that Young Tom was the best player of his and the following generations. But I'm curious about a couple of things.

How much of his dominance was attributable to his skill as a competitor and how much to his skill at hitting a ball with a club? Would he have shot the same scores in competition as in a casual game?


By way of analogy, the thing that I think made Nicklaus better was his skill as a competitor. In a casual round (I'm expounding on impressions from years of magazine articles, I could be way off here, but it still works as an example) Nicklaus might not shoot any better than any run-of-the-mill pro, but in competition, he'd maintain his composure and experience little fall-off, whereas ordinary pros would fall-off much more.


Is this how Young Tom was or could he go even lower when not under extreme pressure?
Severally on the occasion of everything that thou doest, pause and ask thyself, if death is a dreadful thing because it deprives thee of this. - Marcus Aurelius

Anthony Gray

Re: O.T. How Good was Young Tom?
« Reply #1 on: October 06, 2009, 06:05:21 PM »


  He shot a record 77 on TOC. I could not do that today.

  Anthony


JMEvensky

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Re: O.T. How Good was Young Tom?
« Reply #2 on: October 06, 2009, 06:17:50 PM »
I too would be curious.Just from reading Tommy's Honor,my sense was that very little of his golf was purely social--mostly tournament and/or money matches.My guess is that he was almost always "on".

Looking forward to Melvyn's insights.

Phil_the_Author

Re: O.T. How Good was Young Tom?
« Reply #3 on: October 06, 2009, 09:13:36 PM »
Tilly wrote an article for the Pacific Coast Golfer magazine in which he was asked to rank the ten greatest golfer's of all time. It included Young Tom Morris. Here is what he wrote:

Pacific Coast Golfer, December 1939
      Some time since I was asked to give an opinion of the leading golfers of All Time. Probably the query was directed at me because of my unusually long association with tournament players both in America and Great Britain, and it is likely that I have seen as much as most – and possibly more. With the exception of Young Tom Morris, who died before I stalked the links, it has been my rare privilege not only to have observed the play of every man-jack of the following list but to have played with a half dozen of the first nine.
      In making these selections I have taken into major consideration their performances through a series of years and the triumphs in sustained attacks on the world’s championships. Any good golfer may flash now and then but the light that burns steadily throughout the years must be regarded more as a fixed star than as a meteor. No doubt those of the present age will take some exception to the preeminence I give to those of the past, but their records speak for themselves even though there was less competition in the old days. But I must insist the men, whose names are now legend, had to know much more about hitting a golf ball in more ways with fewer clubs than the lads today.
      Without hesitation I name the great Harry Vardon as the peer of all golfers who ever lived. He was so close to absolute perfection, save for an occasional stabbing of his putts, that his monotonously immaculate stroking made the game seem absurdly simple. I played considerably with Harry and never saw him make any grave error and his slight lapses were occasional indeed. Well, sink or swim, here are the greatest ten of all time as I have seen them. The picking of the first nine is duck soup, as the saying goes, but the tenth brings us right up to the greats of the present day and really one might well put down a dozen names and simply say – “That one, if he gets the breaks and carries a hot a hot putter for the day.” So I will start my list at the end by naming Henry Cotton of England, Ralph Guldahl (at medal play), Byron Nelson and Henry Picard as the leading stars of America. But there are the others, who look like the greatest ever when they have their days.

9- Willie Anderson
8- Johnnie McDermott
7- John Ball
6- James Braid
5- J.H. Taylor
4- Tommy Morris
3- Walter Hagen
2- Bobby Jones
1- Harry Vardon

I always get theb impression, when I read anything that he wrote about Young Tom, that he may have liked to have ranked him even higher but didn't because of how long he had been dead for...

Charlie Goerges

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Re: O.T. How Good was Young Tom?
« Reply #4 on: October 06, 2009, 09:39:01 PM »
Thanks for the responses. The question was brought about by a recent re-reading of Scotland's Gift. MacDonald said something to the effect that Young Tom was without peer.

I was curious what that meant. It made me wonder if he was without peer in the way Nicklaus was without peer (i.e. able to execute under pressure) or if he had something more (i.e. he had shots that no one else had or could even dream of).


If Young Tom, say, shot a 43 on the front nine at the Old Course standing on his right foot to hit shots and a 42 on the back standing only on his left, that would be evidence of the latter.
Severally on the occasion of everything that thou doest, pause and ask thyself, if death is a dreadful thing because it deprives thee of this. - Marcus Aurelius

Melvyn Morrow

Re: O.T. How Good was Young Tom?
« Reply #5 on: October 07, 2009, 08:03:11 AM »

Charlie

Check your e-mail for my response to your question.

Melvyn

Kalen Braley

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Re: O.T. How Good was Young Tom?
« Reply #6 on: October 07, 2009, 08:31:36 AM »


  He shot a record 77 on TOC. I could not do that today.

  Anthony



A 77 doesn't seem so hard!!   ;D

Adrian_Stiff

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Re: O.T. How Good was Young Tom?
« Reply #7 on: October 07, 2009, 10:51:06 AM »
All you can really say is he was the best at that time. 4 wins of the Open in about 8 try's but a couple of non wins when he was very young. Transplanting todays players backwards in time and bring the ODG to this era is merely doodling. Greatness in anysport is best confined to eras.
A combination of whats good for golf and good for turf.
The Players Club, Cumberwell Park, The Kendleshire, Oake Manor, Dainton Park, Forest Hills, Erlestoke, St Cleres.
www.theplayersgolfclub.com

David Stamm

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Re: O.T. How Good was Young Tom?
« Reply #8 on: October 07, 2009, 10:55:51 AM »
All you can really say is he was the best at that time. 4 wins of the Open in about 8 try's but a couple of non wins when he was very young. Transplanting todays players backwards in time and bring the ODG to this era is merely doodling. Greatness in anysport is best confined to eras.


Exceedingly well said, Adrian.
"The object of golf architecture is to give an intelligent purpose to the striking of a golf ball."- Max Behr

Charlie Goerges

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Re: O.T. How Good was Young Tom?
« Reply #9 on: October 07, 2009, 10:56:42 AM »
All you can really say is he was the best at that time. 4 wins of the Open in about 8 try's but a couple of non wins when he was very young. Transplanting todays players backwards in time and bring the ODG to this era is merely doodling. Greatness in anysport is best confined to eras.


Agreed Adrian; which is why I was looking for examples of things he'd done or skills he had compared to others of his time. I used JN not as a comparison, but as an analog for the type of information I was looking for. Basically how was Young Tom better than his peers and how much better was he than his peers.



Melvyn, thanks for the email. Would you mind if I posted your attachment?
Severally on the occasion of everything that thou doest, pause and ask thyself, if death is a dreadful thing because it deprives thee of this. - Marcus Aurelius

Melvyn Morrow

Re: O.T. How Good was Young Tom?
« Reply #10 on: October 07, 2009, 11:33:59 AM »

Charlie

Yes, If you wish, I have no problems.

Melvyn

Anthony Gray

Re: O.T. How Good was Young Tom?
« Reply #11 on: October 07, 2009, 11:40:51 AM »


  Is it safe to say that Old and Young Tom would when the All-Time Father/Son tournament?

  Anthony


Anthony Gray

Re: O.T. How Good was Young Tom?
« Reply #12 on: October 07, 2009, 11:54:14 AM »


 

 

 

  Thanks for the attatchment Melvyn.

  Anthony


Melvyn Morrow

Re: O.T. How Good was Young Tom?
« Reply #13 on: October 07, 2009, 12:38:03 PM »
Charlie, as suggested I attach my e-mail and attachment.

E-mail

Charlie

That is an interesting question, however I don’t like comparing golfers or for that matter courses with later examples.  I like to look at them within their own time period and concept behind the designs.

As for Young Tommy, all we can judge on are comments and his performance. The fact that from a young age he not just beat but destroyed the great names of the day, then went on to win four consecutive championships, for me confirms his standing and quality.

The best way to judge is to ask latter day heroes to use the gutta percha ball and hickory shafted club on a 568 yard hole and see if they can down it in 3. Also play TOC today again with gutty/hickory and see the result of their score cards. Of course you would have to allow each modern golfer to get to grips with the “New Technology” to them prior to taking up the challenge.

My feeling and knowledge of the courses at Prestwick & St Andrews, would move me to say that even Tiger would have a hard time. For me the real interesting question is could Young Tommy master today’s technology and the improved conditions of the courses (including the cut of the greens/fairways) and get close to the best of today. I think we would be very much surprised, but alas we will never know.

I attach my short reply to your question under the Title ‘Young Tommy, The First Modern Golfer’.

Attachment

Young Tommy Morris
The First of the Modern Golfers                            

Young Tom entered his first Open in 1865 at the age of 14, however he lost interest and gave up after 24 of the 36 holes. Interesting point being that Young Tom was one stroke ahead of his father Old Tom when he decided that he had better things to do on that day.

Young Tommy was a natural, well by the definition as we view it today. His swing was quick and wristy. He was reported to be able to break the club head from the shaft when waggling the club as he addressed the ball. Tommy’s strength was conveyed through to his ability of hitting the ball hard and harder still for increased length. His game was open and he enjoyed the lofty shot to the pin. His game certainly seemed not to accept any conventions and through this, he developed a variety of shots never seen before. One famous being the ‘jigger’ (pitch & run) which has been much used by many not just on our links courses ever since.

The Rev. N Proudfoot wrote of Young Tommy and his swing
“Tommy was the embodiment of masterful energy every muscle of his well-knit frame seemed summoned into service. He stood well back from the ball, and with dashing, pressing, forceful style of driving, which seldom failed, sent it whizzing on its far and sure flight”

His Game and how consistent was he.  I expect it is best explained by his happiness not only to accept challenges but would go out and actually issue them himself. He was unlike the other golfers who relied upon just the pot or bets, Young Tommy required a fixed agreed fee above and beyond any pot or betting revenue that he might also make. This approach changed the professional game and has been with it ever since his day.

The magic of Young Tommy was his ability to understand the game and course, to know when it was right to take the risk, to play his various shots correctly and when to incorporate caution. His great strength on driving and his devastating skill at putting, for me makes him the first of what I consider the Complete Modern Golfer.

               



As for his game itself, lets look quickly at one of his challenge to Willie Park the then Champion post tournament match of 3 rounds for the sum of £5. Young Tommy still a teenager beat the Champion by 8 up with 7 still to play.

Bob Fergison late in his life said about Young Tommy, “He was the greatest player in the world and the finest golfer he had ever played against.

Young Tom Morris played golf in his normal manner, to win or to try to win. I do not believe it varied, on the day he did his best.

That was one of the things I was taught by my own father and great uncle, they expect no more that my best, whether I win or lose. In a friendly game the name of that game is friendship and winning is of no importance just the enjoyment of the game of golf itself.

The book Tommy’s Honour by Kevin is enjoyable, and then the current book on the life of Old Tom “Tom Morris of St Andrews The Colossus of Golf 1821-1908” has a section on Young Tommy.

I hope I have answered your question, yet I expect I may have raised more in the process.

Melvyn

                       
The Morrow Golfing Shirt Crest used by my brother & I. 
« Last Edit: October 07, 2009, 12:57:24 PM by Melvyn Hunter Morrow »

Dick Kirkpatrick

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Re: O.T. How Good was Young Tom?
« Reply #14 on: October 07, 2009, 02:04:19 PM »
Melvyn:

Which of Tommy's attributes best describe you?  :)

Melvyn Morrow

Re: O.T. How Good was Young Tom?
« Reply #15 on: October 07, 2009, 03:15:01 PM »

Dick

"on the day he did his best"

Melvyn

Dick Kirkpatrick

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Re: O.T. How Good was Young Tom?
« Reply #16 on: October 07, 2009, 03:31:47 PM »
Great answer Melvyn, that is all any of us can do, is "give it our all" or "do our best."




Jud_T

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Re: O.T. How Good was Young Tom?
« Reply #17 on: October 07, 2009, 03:33:09 PM »
Not only is he the youngest champion (17 years, 5 months , 8 days in 1868) but he was also the youngest competitor ever in the Open Championship (14 years, 4 months, 25 days in 1865)....
Golf is a game. We play it. Somewhere along the way we took the fun out of it and charged a premium to be punished.- - Ron Sirak

Jud_T

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Re: O.T. How Good was Young Tom?
« Reply #18 on: October 07, 2009, 03:45:04 PM »
The fliip side to this question is who is the best player who choked in competition? today i'd say Sergio or Kenny Perry (?) what about throughout history?
Golf is a game. We play it. Somewhere along the way we took the fun out of it and charged a premium to be punished.- - Ron Sirak

Phil_the_Author

Re: O.T. How Good was Young Tom?
« Reply #19 on: October 07, 2009, 03:48:19 PM »
"The fliip side to this question is who is the best player who choked in competition?"

Arnold Palmer...

Adrian_Stiff

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Re: O.T. How Good was Young Tom?
« Reply #20 on: October 07, 2009, 04:00:35 PM »
Leo Deigel had some good fluffs too, including a air putts. In 1933 he had a putt to win the Open Championship, then missed a tiny one to miss the play off. Outside of majors try googling LEFTY STACKHOUSE!!!!!!
A combination of whats good for golf and good for turf.
The Players Club, Cumberwell Park, The Kendleshire, Oake Manor, Dainton Park, Forest Hills, Erlestoke, St Cleres.
www.theplayersgolfclub.com

JMEvensky

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: O.T. How Good was Young Tom?
« Reply #21 on: October 07, 2009, 05:06:41 PM »
Which good player hasn't choked in competition?

Jud_T

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Re: O.T. How Good was Young Tom?
« Reply #22 on: October 07, 2009, 05:10:15 PM »
Tiger never chokes...
Golf is a game. We play it. Somewhere along the way we took the fun out of it and charged a premium to be punished.- - Ron Sirak

Melvyn Morrow

Re: O.T. How Good was Young Tom?
« Reply #23 on: October 07, 2009, 06:04:25 PM »

Jud

Tiger chokes me when he has a temper tantrum on courses ;D

Melvyn


Jud_T

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Re: O.T. How Good was Young Tom?
« Reply #24 on: October 07, 2009, 06:26:47 PM »
Point taken...
Golf is a game. We play it. Somewhere along the way we took the fun out of it and charged a premium to be punished.- - Ron Sirak

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