[Tiger_Bernhardt]

It all starts with National but where do you go from there? Fishers, Yale, Mountain Lake, Carmargo, Shoreacres or ______. What are our 1 to 10?

[JC Jones]

Is Mountain Lake really, potentially, on this list?  Partly because I didnt know it to be that good and partly because I didn't think Macdonald had anything to do with it.

When did they do their restoration to take it back to the old Raynor style?  Orlando here I come!!

[Jim_Kennedy]

GW has them (on their 100 best classics list):
National
Fishers
Chicago
Camargo
Shoreacres
Yeaman's
Yale
Piping Rock
Mtn. Lake
St. Louis
Foxchapel
CCof Fairfield
Creek Club.

That list is above my pay grade so someone else will have to dispute it. 

[Robert Emmons]

My thoughts:

National
Fishers
Chicago
Yale
Piping Rock
Camargo
CC of Fairfield
Shoreacres
Creek
Westhampton

[TEPaul]

I think JC Jones has it right in his implication that too many assume that Macdonald had something significant to do with the courses that really only Raynor had to do with.

I've never tried to calculate it but in my mind Macdonald was probably only actively involved in a signficant way ain less than ten golf course projects, if that.

In his own book the only ones he really talks about are:

NGLA
Piping Rock
The Lido
The Links Club
St Louis
Greenbrier
Mid Ocean
Yale

He hardly mentions projects like The Creek Club which he clearly had a great deal to do with in a number of ways not to even mention he was made the president of the corporation that owned the place. He hardly mentioned it in his book though and there appears to have been a good reason for it!  

I think it is also quite interesting that in his book he really doesn't have a lot to say about the architecture of his own original iteration of Chicago GC. 

[JC Jones]

Tom Paul,

Their website does not claim any Macdonald involvement.

http://www.mountainlakecc.com/club/scripts/public/public.asp?NS=PUBLIC

Info of their restoration and other information is here:

http://www.mountainlakecc.com/club/scripts/section/section.asp?GRP=5274&NS=GO

[TEPaul]

JC:

Macdonald had nothing to do with either Mountain Lake or Fishers Island (or nothing of any significance). Both projects were project combinations of Raynor (golf architect), Ruth (a Baltimore devloper) and Olmsted (famous American landscape architect and land planner from Boston). Mountain Lake came first and then Fishers Island followed it and the two clubs were as close to sisters in many ways as could be. They had many of the same members and even the staffs of both clubs commuted and worked at both seasonally!

[Chris_Clouser]

I have only seen one Raynor course, Camargo.  That was quite a few years ago on a rainy morning while my family was staying at a hotel waiting for me to get done so we could go to Kings Island.  To be honest, I wasn't that impressed.  Maybe it was the day or something else, but it just seemed to be finely manicured and heavily manufactured golf.  If I were to go back again I might have a different impression, but then again maybe not. 

[TEPaul]

"To be honest, I wasn't that impressed.  Maybe it was the day or something else, but it just seemed to be finely manicured and heavily manufactured golf."


Chris:

Apparently you suffer from a titch of what has become known as "The Wayne Morrison Syndrome."  

If you would like me to describe what exactly "The Wayne Morrison Syndrome" is I would be glad to give it a shot, but the short story is it's sort of an unresolved psychological dynamic (call it a psychosis if you like) between what should appear natural about golf architecture VERSUS what should seem man-made (if anything).  Wayne has had some catastrophic nightmares about this very thing particularly when the apparition of William Flynn appears in his dreams and occasionally with the specter of Hugh Wilson hovering in the background behind Billy Boy Flynn! He even tells me the plaintive and throbbing beat of a song about Nature by the duetists, Arlo Guthrie and Joan Baez, plays in the background and that Arlo and Joan happen to be sitting stark naked on side by side stools strumming their guitars. There is even an overbearing olfactory sensation that is part of these dreams but I'll get into that piece some other time.

[Bill Brightly]

I'll expand the definition of "MacRaynor" to include Raynor's assistant, Charles Banks (who finished Fishers Island after Raynor died...) and amend the list as follows:

National
Fishers
Chicago
Essex County CC
Yale
Piping Rock
Camargo
Shoreacres
St. Louis
Fox Chapel
Creek Club
Hackensack
Forsgate

[JC Jones]

JC:

Macdonald had nothing to do with either Mountain Lake or Fishers Island (or nothing of any significance). Both projects were project combinations of Raynor (golf architect), Ruth (a Baltimore devloper) and Olmsted (famous American landscape architect and land planner from Boston). Mountain Lake came first and then Fishers Island followed it and the two clubs were as close to sisters in many ways as could be. They had many of the same members and even the staffs of both clubs commuted and worked at both seasonally!

Fascinating stuff.  The Mountain Lake website says nothing of this affiliation.  Is it as strong today as it once was?  I get the impression it is not.

[Sean_A]

I tell ya what, it sure does peak my interest when I see a course like Yale (one I don't know, but the pix make it look outrageously good) not get listed higher than #4 on these lists.  I have only seen one Raynor and while it didn't knock my socks off, it did get my attention due to a lot of cool stuff going on.  Additionally, I have only seen one Banks (in awful shape and condition) and I liked that a load.  Lets just say I am eager to explore a bit more.

Ciao

[Jud_T]

Sean,

Yale is a phenomenal layout on a particularly good piece of property.  It has been downgraded because of conditioning issues that have persisted for years...The new regime there claims to be committed to improving the maintenance of the course, but I haven't played it in the past few years to attest to this.  Charles Banks is quite an interesting character... Get out the Tamarack C.C. in Greenwich to check out his work if you get the chance....

[TEPaul]

"Is it as strong today as it once was?  I get the impression it is not."


JC:

Definitely not as strong as it once was but there still are a few of The Chosen which in a real way includes the fact that one pretty much must have a house at both (although both were designed with small and very cool hotels as part of the deal)! Neither Mountain Lake nor Fishers Island are the types of places that an active member just sort of drives to from somewhere else if you know what I mean.  

Mountain Lake was also originally conceived with a component to it that I have never heard another club do or try. That is its extensive citrus groves (originally numbering in the thousands of acres) that contributes to the financial support of the Mountain Lake Corporation. It is still ongoing I am told. And right in the middle of this glorious place in the middle of Florida sits this fascinating carillon tower known as Bach's Tower that apparently makes the place the highest point in Florida or central Florida.

[TEPaul]

JC:

The other interesting thing about both Mountain Lake and Fishers Island are their original Olmsted residential land plans that called for a certain number of residential lots. I think it says a lot about both places that neither club or corporation ever chose to actually built that original Olmsted residential land plan all the way out. The same can be said of Pine Valley!  

[Chris_Clouser]

Tom,

I am well aware of the Wayne Morrison Syndrome.   

It is probably just a case of having to go back and see the course once again.  So if anyone from Camargo is listening, this is your chance to change my mind.   

[Anthony Gray]

  Merion should be in the top 10.

  Anthony

[TEPaul]

"Tom,

I am well aware of the Wayne Morrison Syndrome.    

It is probably just a case of having to go back and see the course once again."



Perhaps for you but not for Wayne Morrison. To even get him to enter a Macdonald/Raynor club I would pretty much have to drug him heavily and put him in a tight straight jacket and perhaps inside a cage, otherwise he would surely begin to shake uncontrollably, go bare-ass hog wild and eventually totally collapse before the end of the day. The procedure is probably not unlike what one would need to do to take Osama bin Laden into a Las Vegas casino.

[Bill Brightly]

Sean,

Yale is an absolute blast  and a real "must-play" if you are a student of MacRaynors. I tend to knock it down a notch due to its conditioning, which apparently is getting better each year. I will be interested to hear what Anthony's group things when they play it this month.

[TEPaul]

"Merion should be in the top 10."

It is in the top ten, Anthony, and remarkably without even Macdonald or the second best architect in America at the time, HH Barker, being 'the driving forces behind it.'  

[JC Jones]

"Is it as strong today as it once was?  I get the impression it is not."


JC:

Definitely not as strong as it once was but there still are a few of The Chosen which in a real way includes the fact that one pretty much must have a house at both (although both were designed with small and very cool hotels as part of the deal)! Neither Mountain Lake nor Fishers Island are the types of places that an active member just sort of drives to from somewhere else if you know what I mean.  

Mountain Lake was also originally conceived with a component to it that I have never heard another club do or try. That is its extensive citrus groves (originally numbering in the thousands of acres) that contributes to the financial support of the Mountain Lake Corporation. It is still ongoing I am told. And right in the middle of this glorious place in the middle of Florida sits this fascinating carillon tower known as Bach's Tower that apparently makes the place the highest point in Florida or central Florida.

I'm picking up what you are laying down. 

I thnk that is a brilliant idea by Mountain Lake to have income generated from another source.  Keeps costs down for all.

[Chris_Clouser]

Tom,

I guess I'm just more open-minded than Wayne "Flynn is the center of the universe" Morrison.  

[JC Jones]

"Tom,

I am well aware of the Wayne Morrison Syndrome.    

It is probably just a case of having to go back and see the course once again."



Perhaps for you but not for Wayne Morrison. To even get him to enter a Macdonald/Raynor club I would pretty much have to drug him heavily and put him in a tight straight jacket and perhaps inside a cage, otherwise he would surely begin to shake uncontrollably, go bare-ass hog wild and eventually totally collapse before the end of the day. The procedure is probably not unlike what one would need to do to take Osama bin Laden into a Las Vegas casino.

Could he be pacified with a trip past Macdonald's grave first?

[TEPaul]

"Could he be pacified with a trip past Macdonald's grave first?"


JC:

We already tried that and unfortunately it was completely misunderstood by a few of the silly and vindicative yahoos on this very website. The truth about that particular visit to the Southampton cemetary in which Macdonald, Whigam and Raynor repose within thirty yards of one another has nothing to do with Wayne's "Macdonald/Rayor Syndrome," it is just that Wayne occasionally suffers from a few plumbing woes that can generally be classified as "Perverse PeeWee Incontinence." I know this has little or nothing to do with his "Macdonald/Raynor Syndrome" because I once saw it happen to him when he was standing over perhaps the most important putt he has ever faced on the 18th green at Merion East.

[JC Jones]

"Could he be pacified with a trip past Macdonald's grave first?"


JC:

We already tried that and unfortunately it was completely misunderstood by a few of the silly and vindicative yahoos on this very website. The truth about that particular visit to the Southampton cemetary in which Macdonald, Whigam and Raynor repose within thirty yards of one another has nothing to do with Wayne's "Macdonald/Rayor Syndrome," it is just that Wayne occasionally suffers from a few plumbing woes that can generally be classified as "Perverse PeeWee Incontinence." I know this has little or nothing to do with his "Macdonald/Raynor Syndrome" because I once saw it happen to him when he was standing over perhaps the most important putt he has ever faced on the 18th green at Merion East.

 

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