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Richard Choi

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If hosting a major does not require a great GCA, then what does?
« on: October 05, 2009, 06:58:03 PM »
Other than sufficient length (preferably over 7400 yards), rough (4+ inches, please), and fast greens (13+) do you really need anything else to host a successful major?

If we have learned anything from majors at Torrey Pines or Hazeltine, it is that the course does not need to be GCA gems for it to host a successful major. Especially when the success is measured by the score relative to the par and who wins it.

Seriously, couldn't most muni's nearby could host a major if it was 7600 yards, can grow 5 inch thick bluegrass rough (with 25 yard wide fairways) and greens that can run 14 without killing it? Far as I can tell, bunkers are non-issues as it is more penal to land in the thick rough than the bunker.

Why do you really need great GCA to host a major?
« Last Edit: October 06, 2009, 11:55:13 AM by Richard Choi »
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Jim_Kennedy

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Re: What is REALLY required to host a major?
« Reply #1 on: October 05, 2009, 06:59:28 PM »
You need great GCA if you don't have any history to sell.
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"I never beat a well man in my life" - Harry Vardon

Richard Choi

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What is REALLY required to host a major?
« Reply #2 on: October 05, 2009, 07:00:20 PM »
So great GCA really is just for marketing?
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Jeff Goldman

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Re: What is REALLY required to host a major?
« Reply #3 on: October 05, 2009, 07:00:38 PM »
Cooperation of local and municipal authorities, and huge planning of logistics.  At least as important, and possibly far more important than the golf course   ::)
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That was one hellacious beaver.

Jud_T

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Re: What is REALLY required to host a major?
« Reply #4 on: October 05, 2009, 07:04:51 PM »
You need room for corporate tents and good access for parking etc.
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Golf is a game. We play it. Somewhere along the way we took the fun out of it and charged a premium to be punished.- - Ron Sirak

Chip Gaskins

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What is REALLY required to host a major?
« Reply #5 on: October 05, 2009, 07:06:55 PM »
A big big parking lot, preferably a second course (Olympic, Congressional, Bethpage, Pinehurst, Winged Foot, Torrey, etc) to use for corporate tents, a membership that takes pride in hosting a Major and is willing to give up their course up for months, bent grass greens (no bermuda), cool temperatures (no more Atlanta and nothing south of Pinehurst), near a major market (Chicago, LA, NYC, SF, etc),......OH, did you mean something about the actual GOLF COURSE, then I have no idea ;D
« Last Edit: October 05, 2009, 07:16:09 PM by Chip Gaskins »
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David Stamm

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Re: What is REALLY required to host a major?
« Reply #6 on: October 05, 2009, 07:07:26 PM »
A course Rees Pieces or Tom Fabio haven't sunk their claws into yet so they can, uh, sink their claws into it....
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"The object of golf architecture is to give an intelligent purpose to the striking of a golf ball."- Max Behr

Richard Choi

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What is REALLY required to host a major?
« Reply #7 on: October 05, 2009, 07:13:59 PM »
I think I agree with most posters here that the logistics needs trumps GCA needs far more.

Then why do we have so few courses around the country that have hosted majors? Surely, there are many many courses around the country that have all the logistics (nearby metro city, enough land, transportation, etc.) but are not anywhere NEAR the discussions when it comes to hosting a major.

Why?
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Jim_Kennedy

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Re: What is REALLY required to host a major?
« Reply #8 on: October 05, 2009, 07:20:26 PM »
Richard,
I think you need to look at the list of golf courses that have hosted the Open, there isn't a clunker in the pack.

Every US Open course, at one time or another, was new to the rota, but every one of them had good architecture and was seen as a championship caliber venue. 
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"I never beat a well man in my life" - Harry Vardon

Michael Huber

Re: What is REALLY required to host a major?
« Reply #9 on: October 05, 2009, 07:22:37 PM »
Co-operation from the course itself.
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Richard Choi

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What is REALLY required to host a major?
« Reply #10 on: October 05, 2009, 07:30:08 PM »
Quote from: Jim_Kennedy on October 05, 2009, 07:20:26 PM
Richard,
I think you need to look at the list of golf courses that have hosted the Open, there isn't a clunker in the pack.

Other than the view, is Torrey Pines really that much better than really good public courses in every state?

I agree that the list of courses that have hosted the Open is impressive. But is it necessary?
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Wade Whitehead

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Re: What is REALLY required to host a major?
« Reply #11 on: October 05, 2009, 07:37:33 PM »
Quote from: Richard Choi on October 05, 2009, 07:30:08 PM
Other than the view, is Torrey Pines really that much better than really good public courses in every state?

I agree that the list of courses that have hosted the Open is impressive. But is it necessary?

I believe it is.  The US Open is generally played on very good golf courses.  And Torrey Pines is among them.

However, your original question was more broad: What is required to host a major?  There are four distinct answers to that.

WW
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Joel_Stewart

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Re: What is REALLY required to host a major?
« Reply #12 on: October 05, 2009, 07:43:11 PM »
You need a good population base, an area with lots of corporations and land, lots of land.

The corporate tents are just one piece.  You need to a lot of parking and logistics for mass transportaion.  You need an area where a huge merchandise tent can be erected.   You need a lot of land for a television city and NBC.  You need to erect a small village for first aid, garbage, volunteers and the USGA.

Having been to a few Opens, a facility with 2 courses barely makes it.  Bethpage is perfect because they have more than 2 courses.  I have no idea how Merion is going to make it work.
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Jim_Kennedy

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Re: What is REALLY required to host a major?
« Reply #13 on: October 05, 2009, 07:43:19 PM »
RC,
TP is almost an icon, it was a must-play a long time before it hosted a US Open and it wasn't a stranger to tour golf, remember Stadler? It had history.

I still think it's a no-history/ better have good architecture proposition, and the USGA has been making millions off this formula for years.
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"I never beat a well man in my life" - Harry Vardon

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What is REALLY required to host a major?
« Reply #14 on: October 05, 2009, 07:45:24 PM »
I don't think anyone can call TP a clunker...and I think thats what Jim meant.  Sure it could be argued its not a great course, but if one claims TP is a "clunker" then one must have massively high standards.

The reality is there are several places that could hold a US Open, but I think politics, connections, back-scratching or the lack there-of is what most likely gets in the way.

Thanksgiving Point can be tipped out at nearly 8000 yards and the fairways pinched in with 4-5 inch rough and I guarantee they wouldn't break par.  And there is plenty of space near by to put up the tents, etc.
« Last Edit: October 05, 2009, 07:47:16 PM by Kalen Braley »
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Richard Choi

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What is REALLY required to host a major?
« Reply #15 on: October 05, 2009, 07:46:17 PM »
Quote from: wwhitehead on October 05, 2009, 07:37:33 PM
However, your original question was more broad: What is required to host a major?  There are four distinct answers to that.

What I really would like to ask eveyone here is why is good GCA required for hosting a major? I believe logistics are much more important and almost ANY golf course can be configured to host an entertaining major.

Is that wrong?
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Jim_Kennedy

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Re: What is REALLY required to host a major?
« Reply #16 on: October 05, 2009, 07:53:59 PM »
RC,
Yes, it's wrong.

No one would watch, or attend, a US Open at a crappy golf course.

Think about it man, how the heck are you going to sell a ticket to the "120th US Open at Mediocre Meadows Golf Club"??    ::)
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"I never beat a well man in my life" - Harry Vardon

Wade Whitehead

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What is REALLY required to host a major?
« Reply #17 on: October 05, 2009, 07:54:52 PM »
Quote from: Richard Choi on October 05, 2009, 07:46:17 PM
What I really would like to ask eveyone here is why is good GCA required for hosting a major? I believe logistics are much more important and almost ANY golf course can be configured to host an entertaining major.

Is that wrong?

I certainly wouldn't say that almost any golf course can be configured to host an entertaining major.  Most lack both infrastructure and essential architectural elements.

My observation is that most golf courses, architecturally speaking, just aren't that good.  I'd state your opposite, in fact: VERY FEW golf courses can be configured to host an entertaining major.

WW
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David Stamm

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Re: What is REALLY required to host a major?
« Reply #18 on: October 05, 2009, 07:55:34 PM »
Architecture is almost irrelevant to hosting a major. The setups the USGA for example demands negates much of it. I would rather see them on modern courses so the venerable old courses aren't messed with to test the best players. The only reason they keep them there is for the historical angle.
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"The object of golf architecture is to give an intelligent purpose to the striking of a golf ball."- Max Behr

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What is REALLY required to host a major?
« Reply #19 on: October 05, 2009, 07:57:04 PM »
Quote from: Jim_Kennedy on October 05, 2009, 07:53:59 PM
RC,
Yes, it's wrong.

No one would watch, or attend, a US Open at a crappy golf course.

Think about it man, how the heck are you going to sell a ticket to the "120th US Open at Mediocre Meadows Golf Club"??    ::)

Jim,

I disagree mostly here.

If Tiger and Phil and everyone else was going to show up...and its a major....I don't doubt for a second they could easily sell enough tickets to make the event a success, even if it was at Mediocre Meadows.

Its the names and being a "major" that drive these events, way much more so than the location.
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Jim_Kennedy

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Re: What is REALLY required to host a major?
« Reply #20 on: October 05, 2009, 08:03:46 PM »
Kalen,
There aren't too many mediocre golf courses that are known to the general viewing/attending public because those mediocre courses never had anything happening on them.
Try selling that to a golfing public that mainly 'knows' courses because of their prior reputations, either as tournament venues or hallowed ground. 
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"I never beat a well man in my life" - Harry Vardon

Michael Huber

Re: What is REALLY required to host a major?
« Reply #21 on: October 05, 2009, 08:22:02 PM »
The whole "can a crappy course host a major" discussion reminds me of the "does a quarterback need to win a super bowl to be considered great?" discussion.   
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Wade Whitehead

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What is REALLY required to host a major?
« Reply #22 on: October 05, 2009, 08:24:05 PM »
Quote from: Michael Huber on October 05, 2009, 08:22:02 PM
The whole "can a crappy course host a major" discussion reminds me of the "does a quarterback need to win a super bowl to be considered great?" discussion.

Post deleted.  Just too ridiculous.

WW
« Last Edit: October 05, 2009, 08:25:46 PM by wwhitehead »
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Eric Smith

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Re: What is REALLY required to host a major?
« Reply #23 on: October 05, 2009, 09:05:01 PM »
Quote from: David Stamm on October 05, 2009, 07:55:34 PM
Architecture is almost irrelevant to hosting a major. The setups the USGA for example demands negates much of it. I would rather see them on modern courses so the venerable old courses aren't messed with to test the best players. The only reason they keep them there is for the historical angle.

A good point David and it reminded me of another one you made a couple years ago on a sort of similar thread....http://golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,29725.0/

Think I'll bump it back up for discussion as well.
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Scott Weersing

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Re: What is REALLY required to host a major?
« Reply #24 on: October 05, 2009, 09:53:28 PM »
Quote from: David Stamm on October 05, 2009, 07:07:26 PM
A course Rees Pieces or Tom Fabio haven't sunk their claws into yet so they can, uh, sink their claws into it....

But Rees hasn't touched the next US Open courses has he? Did Fazio make the changes to Pebble, Congressional, Olympic, Merion, Pinehurst or Chambers Bay?

He touched Cog Hill and it looks like to cursed it forever. I think Erin Hills should have brought in Rees to improve the course. Then it could host a US Open.
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