5th at NGLA...Hog's Back discussion

[R.S._Barker]

Hello,

In my continued studies of NGLA, I've reached the 5th hole, and after studying my 25 images of the Hog's Back, I'm even more convinced that Charles Blair MacDonald was a complete genius.

What amazes me most about this par 5 ( soon to be a par 4 on the scorecard ), is the option your presented with off the tee. From there, your faced with a ridge fronting you ( dropping down to the left ), with those devilish bunkers just waiting to grab your shot to the upper right and safer side of the hole ( larger landing area )....or you can try to skirt the rough on the left and carry the last bunker 205 yards away ( on a direct line ), to a straighter approach, but an uphill lie.

Though I would gather it would better to be on the upper right side, since you have an easier angle into the green complex, which has a nasty bunker front left. ( and I thought the 4th Hole Redan had a naughty bunker ).

I also see that the split bunker between the fairway's has a great look to it, partly from the mounding on either side, and due to the grassy knoll it has nearest the green...what an excellent design.

Now, the perplexing item to me is the Hog's Back nomenclature...I had always believed that a Hog's Back green had a literal ridge running through it, which served to deflect a mis hit shot left or right, based solely on where the ball lands on the green.

But, in looking at the green complex of the 5th, I'm not seeing this feature...OR am I to understand that the actual entire hole would be considered Hog's Back in design, since you have a higher right side, a lower left side, and a ridge splitting the fairway...thus Hogsback ?.

I have included the link to some images found on the gallery page of my website to help clarify my idea of this hole from the above paragraphs, and to help explain the following questions ( since I tend to be too analytical, and might miss the point ..it's been known to happen ) .

I apologize that my site does not allow direct linking to images, but I hope this is not too large of a hassle for those of you that might reply to this thread.

http://members.tripod.com/silverleaf_design/gallery.htm
 
How far would you say a shot has to carry in order to reach the top of the hill on the right side of the fairway from the tee ?.

Secondly, does this hill have a moderate descent down to the oasis on the right of the fairway bunker, or is it steeper...in other words, does this small peninsula serve as a collection area, or is it more of an area that comes into play for the longest hitter ??

My thanks in advance for your time,

Take care,

R.S. Barker

Silverleaf Design

http://members.tripod.com/silverleaf_design/architecture.htm

[TEPaul]

R.S.

First of all the "Hog's Back" refers to the topography of the fairway in the drive area, not the green. The green is actually one of the most mundane greens on NGLA.

But the actual width of the fairway is immense! I think I walked it and it could be 80yds wide! But it's some extraordinary topography on the fairway in the drive area. What is considered the top of the "Hog's Back itself is some pretty interesting contour with some little bowls and low ridges here and there, but this area isn't very wide and there's so much contour complexity on it that if the ball gets off to either the right or left of the spine of the "Hog's Back" it can roll on down into much more blind areas and even into some not good rough very easily.

This fairway is actually where the whole idea of "the maintenance meld" came to me in the first place. The reason was a couple of years ago the course "through the green" was screaming fast and it was apparent that you had to hit the ball right on the top of the "hog's back" spine or the ball just might cascade off the immense fairway to the right or left because either side is very steep and won't hold a ball with that kind of "through the green" speed.

The thing that confuses me about that hole is that very cool center bunker way out there that divides the fairway in two. I don't hit it far and frankly I can't even remember hitting a decent drive on that hole but it seems to me that bunker and center split fairway is too far out there to concern most players. So it makes me wonder why C.B placed it there--that far out. Maybe it came into play more in the old days for the second shot but I can't really see that either.

Maybe I really am very short off the tee but it seems to me  even for a long driver the second shot to the green which is very reachable is blind in almost all cases.

The bunker on the left really isn't bad and it's probably better to be in it than left of it which is very easy to do (since the second shot is blind).

It a good hole, an unusual one, because of the fairway in the drive area. It's a good hole for a very good player to try to make eagle on, I guess, and I think it will make a much better par 4 than short par 5 which I hear the club is going to do!

[George Bahto]

Hog's-Back can be reflect either the green or the fairway or both - the last often hard to find.

That long bunker way down the fairway was once a section of a service road. - It actually comes in to play today for long hitters.

The green is pretty mundane but at one time the green extended way to the left (30' ?? - much like the 12th green)  and perhaps the hog's back would have showed when the green was that big.

Couple of minor examples on courses I'm presently involved with:  Hog's Back green at The Knoll (4th) - one of the great examples although the fairway has shifted dramatically to the right and you no longer come in directly over the center of the (dramatic) spine .....  we hope to change the centerline of play soon.

At Essex County CC (private), the great 12th hole drive is to a real Hog Back landing area - it has been narrowed over the year to be just a strip along the left of the fairway but we will be expanding the fairway to nearly twice it's width and there will be many balls rolling off the right of the Hog-backed fairway with the shorter grass. That one is interesting in yet another way ....   it plays as a Hog's Back tee-ball but then progresses to a Road Hole green (although an un-named archie ruined the continuous road bunker along the back and the right side by injecting a large Redan-looking mound in the right front corner).

NGLA:  what has always impressed me with the Hog's-Back at National is that it presents a very scary driving  off the tee but when you are out in the fairway and look back you wonder what the heck you were worrying about - there is a ton of room out there. I think it is a great driving hole.

[Patrick_Mucci]

TEPaul,

How could you forget your beloved turbo boost on the right side for your second shot.

Prior to sprinkler systems, downwind, I would imagine the diagonal bunker came into play.  Today, long hitters, especially downwind do end up in that bunker.

I hope no one changes par on that hole, it's a wonderful par 5 even if one expects a birdie or better, and part of a pattern of holes that lull you to sleep prior to making the turn at # 9.

The lack of a level lie adds to the challenge.  The wind, the Shinnecock clubhouse, the redan behind the tee, short on deck.  Please don't change par on the hole.

George,

Tell us more about the old green, why did it get shifted or reduced ? and when.

[TEPaul]

Pat:

It's not that I forgot the turbo boost on the second shot, it's just that I'm so far back there when I hit the second shot I've never actually seen it happen.

GeorgeB:

I'd love to know more about that original #5 green shape too. Who changed it and when. I'd like to know some more about #12 green too. That changed too from what is was originally. correct? Who changed that one, when and why?

[Patrick_Mucci]

TEPaul,

One of the advantages of playing with members is they usually know all the crafty shots that we visitors don't have the time to think of or work on.

I'll never forget trying to get home with a three wood and hitting a pretty good shot right at the hole, only to end up short with the ball kicking to the left.  My host/opponent then hit a low two iron up the right side.  I'll be damned if the ball didn't run forever, eventually ending up on the green.

I was amazed, he was as far away as I was, but instead of hitting a 3-wood, hit a 2-iron 50 yards short of the green and just let your beloved turbo boost funnel him to the green.

Now, there is a risk, hit your 2-iron a little right and you probably won't find your ball.

There are so many neat, ingenious features at NGLA.
What a joy it must be to play there all the time.

[TEPaul]

Pat:

I know what you mean about some of the tricks and ideas of those members. I went out with one once real early and we must have been done in two hours! He had some interesting stuff to say. On #5 he insisted that the way the hole should be (or the way C.B. wanted it, can't remember which) was the rough grass just off either side of the fairway was supposed to be sort of like high hay that actually lay over on its side so if the ball slipped off the fairway it would get under it! Not too sure how I feel about that one!

But then when we got to #8 he told me that if you happened to get in the left side of that right front bunker (or something like that) just below the green, the only reasonable way to play the shot was to get down on your stomach and play it!

I woulda asked him to demonstrate but by that time I think he was on the next tee.

[SPDB]

I'm sorry to get off subject here, but the recent discussion of The Creek made me think of the following question re: Hog's Back.

George,
Is the 15th at The Creek a Hog's Back hole? The hole is named "Hunch Back" and it would seem to have all of the requisite qualities.

[George Bahto]

SPBD: yes the 15th at Creek is a Hog's-Back approach to the green ......... I think the better description was what they called it - Hunchback - very fitting.

6th at Creek is one of the best par-4s in the northeast - 2-level, punchbowl green with a bit of a Redan type shoulder if you come in short left  of the green