[Sean_A]

Take a courses Doak Scale rating and reference it to the number of people on the maintenance crew.......and you'll probably find that the likes of Cleeve Cloud, Pennard, Minchinhampton Old, Kington, Welshpool, Brora, Mulranny will do rather well whereas your super-plush, mega bucks, highly watered and manicured course will not.
In fact, I think I raised a thread along these lines a few months ago.
atb

Agreed, but this is about climate as much as it is about design.  Most places in the world there is zero chance you could maintain a course in presentable shape with a crew of four or five, because you have to irrigate (at least occasionally), fertilize, etc.  And then there are lots of places where clubs compete for business  on the basis of high-cost conditioning, even if they could present reasonable conditions for much less $.

This is really the fault of clubs and courses....not golfer driven.  A maintenance arms race was started and the customers were dragged along for the ride until they really believed maintenance was more important than design (I think when I was a teenager in the 70s/80s maintenance really started to get out of control)...and now more important than sustainability.  Though to be fair golf talks a lot about sustainability, but it hasn't yet scratched the surface.  Nobody talks about carbon footprint for courses in places which are wide spots on the road. Instead these courses win prizes.  The cost of maintaining these courses is a snip on the overall cost of geting customers to the location.

Ciao

[Tom_Doak]

So the whole concept of resort courses (or even resorts) must be abolished?

[Sean_A]

So the whole concept of resort courses (or even resorts) must be abolished?

I didn't say anything about abolishing courses or resorts...not that the two are comparable.  I am placing the concept of sustainablility in context.  The idea of worrying about how much water to use while at the same time relying a business model which requires customers to fly thousands of miles is a bit out of sync.  Its hard for me to keep a straight face under these circumstances, but then sustainability has become a marketing tool.

Ciao

[Ryan Coles]

I've just received the annual accounts, and I see that the total expenditure on the course last year at Reddish Vale was £150k ($213k)

This includes all wages, materials, and the cost of machinery.

I would imagine that the majority of clubs in the UK exist on similarly meagre budgets.


Thankfully irrigation is not an issue in the Manchester area!

I'd be very surprised if that included machinery purchases. That would normally be capitalised or show elsewhere if leased.

[ward peyronnin]

Loosely defining excellence as a sporting layout with interesting holes and routing and firm and fast conditions and dodging all the rating scales I nominate the Mike Young course in Western Georgia. He took over after several bankruptcies and runs it on arounf $300 K a year I believe making money with green fees under $30

[George Freeman]

Cruit Island Golf Club

Excellent if you ask me...

[Duncan Cheslett]

I've just received the annual accounts, and I see that the total expenditure on the course last year at Reddish Vale was £150k ($213k)

This includes all wages, materials, and the cost of machinery.

I would imagine that the majority of clubs in the UK exist on similarly meagre budgets.


Thankfully irrigation is not an issue in the Manchester area!

I'd be very surprised if that included machinery purchases. That would normally be capitalised or show elsewhere if leased.

My apologies Ryan.


In addition to the £150k we spent £1369.00 on additions to our plant and machinery.


Lease payments on existing machinery are included in the £150k figure.




The course is in excellent condition following an appalling winter. Our greens have been acclaimed by a visiting Master Greenkeeper to be among the best of any inland course in the north-west.


Such is the firmness and the low levels of thatch that we have decided not to hollowtine or scarify the greens this spring. Mowing and ironing is all that is needed until July. This is the reward of six years hard work by our head greenkeeper and his three staff using only organic products where possible and encouraging microbial activity in the soil to tackle the thatch.


In that time the grass mix in our greens has gone from 80% poa to 60% bent/fescue and 40% poa.  This has resulted in less disease and less need for expensive remedies.

[Mark_Fine]

One of my favorite quotes about maintenance costs came from Mike Strantz.  He was asked about the cost of the "low maintenance areas" at Tobacco Road.  He said, "You would not believe how much cost and effort is required to maintain those areas so they look like they are not maintained"! 


Very few great courses have low maintenance budgets (not sure what low is?) though some great courses might not be well maintained regardless of budget. 

[Matt Bielawa]

I don't know enough about agronomy and maintenance to know the answer...


Given the lack of fairway and rough irrigation, would Newport be a good example in the USA?  Or, does the lack of irrigation make them spend more on chemicals and other tactics to make it all work?

[Dave McCollum]

I’d guess that the $300K figure is about the right dividing line for low budget for courses with irrigation.  I assume Duncan’s doesn’t need much.  We do it for less, but have been told by Don Mahaffey that that’s unrealistically low and we weren’t talking about “excellent courses,” which we are not.  We’re just a good course in a scenic spot, a Doak 5 (thanks, Tom), and probably somewhat at the low end budget-wise for our category of affordable golf.

[Ryan Coles]

I've just received the annual accounts, and I see that the total expenditure on the course last year at Reddish Vale was £150k ($213k)

This includes all wages, materials, and the cost of machinery.

I would imagine that the majority of clubs in the UK exist on similarly meagre budgets.


Thankfully irrigation is not an issue in the Manchester area!

I'd be very surprised if that included machinery purchases. That would normally be capitalised or show elsewhere if leased.

My apologies Ryan.


In addition to the £150k we spent £1369.00 on additions to our plant and machinery.


Lease payments on existing machinery are included in the £150k figure.




The course is in excellent condition following an appalling winter. Our greens have been acclaimed by a visiting Master Greenkeeper to be among the best of any inland course in the north-west.


Such is the firmness and the low levels of thatch that we have decided not to hollowtine or scarify the greens this spring. Mowing and ironing is all that is needed until July. This is the reward of six years hard work by our head greenkeeper and his three staff using only organic products where possible and encouraging microbial activity in the soil to tackle the thatch.


In that time the grass mix in our greens has gone from 80% poa to 60% bent/fescue and 40% poa.  This has resulted in less disease and less need for expensive remedies.

That is impressive Duncan and a credit to your team.


I can see your machinery leasing costs are circa 18kpa. To keep to this without paying on the other end in terms of repairs and labour is some going.


As is the change in sward composition and thatch reduction. Conventional current wisdom says that’s difficult to achieve without significant expenditure in terms of top dressing and regular aeration and deep scarification, which is expensive.


Also a different approach in terms of spring maintenance. Prevention is the best cure is a saying I hear a lot and to not even have any practices to alleviate winter compaction is a bit different from the norms I’m aware of.


in terms of disease management, courses in this neck of the woods inland on heavier soils were spending on preventatives last autumn. Those that couldn’t afford to apply fungicide apps, were very badly impacted by disease.

[John Crowley]

Rustic Canyon??


Anyone know their budget?

[Tal Oz]

Rustic Canyon??


Anyone know their budget?

Was gonna say the same thing John. I think the entire staff out there is 8 or less. They switched to reclaimed water in September 2017 and it has helped tremendously.

[SB]

I don't know enough about agronomy and maintenance to know the answer...


Given the lack of fairway and rough irrigation, would Newport be a good example in the USA?  Or, does the lack of irrigation make them spend more on chemicals and other tactics to make it all work?

Newport was my first thought, too.  No, lack of irrigation shouldn't put too much additional disease pressure.  Probably leads to more dead areas in general, but seed is cheap.  If the grass isn't growing, then you can only cut it so much, and Newport isn't really into making anything look overly kept.  I seem to remember some amount of clover, too.

[Carl Rogers]

One of my favorite quotes about maintenance costs came from Mike Strantz.  He was asked about the cost of the "low maintenance areas" at Tobacco Road.  He said, "You would not believe how much cost and effort is required to maintain those areas so they look like they are not maintained"! 


Very few great courses have low maintenance budgets (not sure what low is?) though some great courses might not be well maintained regardless of budget.

This is what has struck me about Mid Pines.  The last couple of times I have played there, a lot of personnel were out maintaining the "natural-unmaintained" areas.

[Ally Mcintosh]

One of my favorite quotes about maintenance costs came from Mike Strantz.  He was asked about the cost of the "low maintenance areas" at Tobacco Road.  He said, "You would not believe how much cost and effort is required to maintain those areas so they look like they are not maintained"! 


Very few great courses have low maintenance budgets (not sure what low is?) though some great courses might not be well maintained regardless of budget.

This is what has struck me about Mid Pines.  The last couple of times I have played there, a lot of personnel were out maintaining the "natural-unmaintained" areas.

In the end, that’s the difference between true minimalism and naturalism.


The design tends to be directly correlated to the maintenance.


If you touch as little area as you can through design and construction and assume that the “out of play” areas will remain untouched once the course is in play, then the maintenance budget will always benefit.


But Tom is right of course: cool season links courses vs warm season water guzzlers are a little out of kilter in terms of their needs.

[Sean_A]

I've just received the annual accounts, and I see that the total expenditure on the course last year at Reddish Vale was £150k ($213k)

This includes all wages, materials, and the cost of machinery.

I would imagine that the majority of clubs in the UK exist on similarly meagre budgets.


Thankfully irrigation is not an issue in the Manchester area!

I'd be very surprised if that included machinery purchases. That would normally be capitalised or show elsewhere if leased.

My apologies Ryan.


In addition to the £150k we spent £1369.00 on additions to our plant and machinery.


Lease payments on existing machinery are included in the £150k figure.

The course is in excellent condition following an appalling winter. Our greens have been acclaimed by a visiting Master Greenkeeper to be among the best of any inland course in the north-west.

Such is the firmness and the low levels of thatch that we have decided not to hollowtine or scarify the greens this spring. Mowing and ironing is all that is needed until July. This is the reward of six years hard work by our head greenkeeper and his three staff using only organic products where possible and encouraging microbial activity in the soil to tackle the thatch.

In that time the grass mix in our greens has gone from 80% poa to 60% bent/fescue and 40% poa.  This has resulted in less disease and less need for expensive remedies.

That is impressive Duncan and a credit to your team.

I can see your machinery leasing costs are circa 18kpa. To keep to this without paying on the other end in terms of repairs and labour is some going.

As is the change in sward composition and thatch reduction. Conventional current wisdom says that’s difficult to achieve without significant expenditure in terms of top dressing and regular aeration and deep scarification, which is expensive.

Also a different approach in terms of spring maintenance. Prevention is the best cure is a saying I hear a lot and to not even have any practices to alleviate winter compaction is a bit different from the norms I’m aware of.

in terms of disease management, courses in this neck of the woods inland on heavier soils were spending on preventatives last autumn. Those that couldn’t afford to apply fungicide apps, were very badly impacted by disease.

I don't know the Greenkeeper's name, but my over-riding memory of Reddish Vale is seeing him treating the 13th green on his hands and knees.  Seeing that made me think the course would improve.


Ciao

[Duncan Cheslett]

The 13th green actually Sean.


Once one our 'problem' greens, the 13th is now dry and in excellent conditiom all year round.


The improvement all round the course since your last visit is remarkable.

[Craig Sweet]

Is there really any such thing as "low maintenance"?  A Super is going to do what she/he needs to do keep the course alive and in the condition that is expected.  That can vary from day to day, season to season.  And no two courses, regardless of proximity, are going to be maintained the same, and at the same cost. 


Maybe someone that is a greenskeeper in Europe can verify this, but seems to me that many Supers contract out certain work in Ireland and the UK.  For example, sanding fairways might be done by contract that supplies sand, equipment, and labor.  Thus, the course might need only 3 or 4 employees.


And, I will say this..what is meant by "excellent"?   If you are using the "ideal maintenance meld" to determine excellence, then you are probably taking about a large maintenance budget, regardless of how "low maintenance" you might think it is.

[Ryan Coles]

Hardly any UK Courses have the budget to top dress Fairways. Virtually unheard of over here.


Rest I agree with.

[Jon Wiggett]

Maybe someone that is a greenskeeper in Europe can verify this, but seems to me that many Supers contract out certain work in Ireland and the UK.  For example, sanding fairways might be done by contract that supplies sand, equipment, and labor.  Thus, the course might need only 3 or 4 employees.

And here we see the void in the maintenance scene in the US and in Europe. Craig, certainly here in GB&I I bet less than 1% of clubs ever sand their fairways.


Jon

[Craig Sweet]

Jon...it's funny you say maybe 1% sand fairways....I see several tweets from supers from "across the pond" that they are sanding fairways...they must be the rare exceptions.  In fact, I am blown away when they tweet that they are putting "500 tones" of sand down....In the US that would be very costly!  Never the less...my POINT was in asking if a lot of work is contracted out rather than done in house?

[Ryan Coles]

You must only be following the Wisley’s Of this world etc. Jon is correct in that it’s few and far between that do.


Some works are contracted of course, but this does nothing to explain the gulf in resources. Contracting costs money as  well.

[Jon Wiggett]

Craig,


I can only think of one course that sands it fairway on a regular basis in the Highlands and they do it in house. I am sure you have seen several tweets about sanding fairways but as there are several thousand courses in GB&I this does not contradict my 1% assertion.


Some stuff will be contracted out at many clubs but it will still be included in the annual budget for greenkeeping which in many cases will be very low.


Jon

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