[Matt_Ward]

Bill:

I played Cochiti years back when a rater for Digest and was really never impressed with the layout. At one time Digest had it among the nation's top 25 public courses and that was just laughable.

The issue for NM will be when the 2nd 18 comes aboard at BM. That 2nd 18 may prove to be the major tipping point in really accelerating the exposure and awareness of the state.

[Adam Clayman]

I hate it when people start interesting threads about far away courses, and the only way I can find out who designed them and when is by searching Google.

Would it cause undue hardship to identify the architect when introducing a specific course thread?

Steve, Not sure about undue hardship. A simple post asking would be easiest. Most of these courses have been discussed many times before and I know I assume most people know who we're talking about. That's clearly a mistake on anyone's part, to assume that people have either read, or care to respond, to posts, or issues, that they may or may not take issue (or agree) with. As an example, Melvyn Morrow, on more than one occasion has made comments about the other 1499 participants not responding to a thread and therefore are somehow condoning the issue he takes issue with. It's just not accurate to assume anything from silence, or, silence within a timeframe that is unreasonable to expect much of a response.

[Sean_A]

Bill:

I played Cochiti years back when a rater for Digest and was really never impressed with the layout. At one time Digest had it among the nation's top 25 public courses and that was just laughable.

The issue for NM will be when the 2nd 18 comes aboard at BM. That 2nd 18 may prove to be the major tipping point in really accelerating the exposure and awareness of the state.

I don't know, I thought Cochiti was alright.  Its not expensive for the area and it is easy to get to if on holiday around Santa Fe.  I would probably go back if I was in the area and wanted a reasonably priced game - if the rates haven't gone up too much.  I seem to recall paying about $25 maybe 12 years ago.

Ciao

[Bill_McBride]

Bill:

I played Cochiti years back when a rater for Digest and was really never impressed with the layout. At one time Digest had it among the nation's top 25 public courses and that was just laughable.

The issue for NM will be when the 2nd 18 comes aboard at BM. That 2nd 18 may prove to be the major tipping point in really accelerating the exposure and awareness of the state.

I don't know, I thought Cochiti was alright.  Its not expensive for the area and it is easy to get to if on holiday around Santa Fe.  I would probably go back if I was in the area and wanted a reasonably priced game - if the rates haven't gone up too much.  I seem to recall paying about $25 maybe 12 years ago.

Ciao

We had four couples in Santa Fe in May 2008 and played BM-PR-BM-Cochiti.

Pa-ako would have been better if we could have played the original course, but played the 2 and 3 nines.

Cochiti was behind the other two but not bad, just okay and non-memorable.

BM is head and shoulders above the other two but we wanted some variety.

Agreed with Matt, it will be something to see with the second course.,s  What's the latest?

[Matt_Ward]

Sean:

There's a big difference between "alright" and for a course to be rated among the top 25 public as Cochiti once was by Digest. I would not be touting the place for anyone visiting from more than 250 miles.

NM golf has much better golf layouts now than it did when Cochiti first opened.

There are also other comparablly priced layouts worth heading to and they are not as isolated as Cochiti.

[Matt_Ward]

Bill McBride:

I've walked the proposed ground for the 2nd layout at BM and it's quite impressive on what it provides and from what I have been told how the suggested routing will work. It is still in its early infancy of planning but the desire to be a clear differentiation with the first course will, in my mind if it comes to pass, allow for both layouts to really shine even more. Sort of like the Bandon model that Keiser followed.

[Bill_McBride]

That's interesting, Matt.  I think I know the general area (off to the right of #13?); does it have the dramatic land forms of the first course?

Here I'm thinking of the box canyons for #4 and #11, the mountainsides for #7, #16 and #17.  Baxter did such a great job incorporating as many of those features as possible into the course.

This really points out what a super course Black Mesa is - I can't remember much about other New Mexico courses while I can remember pretty much everything about BM.    I hope the area Tom Doak is working with has as much drama.  Please report!

[Sean_A]

Sean:

There's a big difference between "alright" and for a course to be rated among the top 25 public as Cochiti once was by Digest. I would not be touting the place for anyone visiting from more than 250 miles.

NM golf has much better golf layouts now than it did when Cochiti first opened.

There are also other comparablly priced layouts worth heading to and they are not as isolated as Cochiti.

Matt

No, I wouldn't say Cochiti is the sort of course one travels any distance (probably more a local course to play a once or twice a year) to specifically play.  However, what it does have going for it is its walkable (not a great walk though) and pretty.  That said, more could have been made of this property.  I can't comment on its relative place in the rankings when it first opened.  It didn't strike me as any better than my local muni - Leslie Park in Ann Arbor.  Looking at the website, $62 is a bit steep, not a price I would be happy to pay. Not that I would take a golf trip to Santa Fe, but if I were there on holiday, I would be inclined to check out Black Mesa unless Paa Ko is a very comfortable walking course. 

Ciao   

[Matt_Ward]

When Digest rated Cochiti the isolation of the course played a helping hand in getting it rated so highly. At that time golf in NM was fairly limited -- although UNM / Championship was certainly present, to name just one exception.

In the intervening years -- NM golf has clearly evolved with a slew of different offerings.

In regards to the walking dimension Sean -- Paa-Ko would be a more demanding effort but can be done. Black Mesa can also be walked and is no more trying than a similar situation one would encounter when playing Bethpage Black -- but at a price that is cheaper to play.

[Bill_McBride]

Sean:

There's a big difference between "alright" and for a course to be rated among the top 25 public as Cochiti once was by Digest. I would not be touting the place for anyone visiting from more than 250 miles.

NM golf has much better golf layouts now than it did when Cochiti first opened.

There are also other comparablly priced layouts worth heading to and they are not as isolated as Cochiti.

Matt

No, I wouldn't say Cochiti is the sort of course one travels any distance (probably more a local course to play a once or twice a year) to specifically play.  However, what it does have going for it is its walkable (not a great walk though) and pretty.  That said, more could have been made of this property.  I can't comment on its relative place in the rankings when it first opened.  It didn't strike me as any better than my local muni - Leslie Park in Ann Arbor.  Looking at the website, $62 is a bit steep, not a price I would be happy to pay. Not that I would take a golf trip to Santa Fe, but if I were there on holiday, I would be inclined to check out Black Mesa unless Paa Ko is a very comfortable walking course. 

Ciao   

A golf trip to Santa Fe is actually a great idea, because there is outstanding golf at Black Mesa and Pa-a-ko Ridge and also a really cool town to explore in Santa Fe itself.  There are terrific Native American art exhibits, solid art galleries, excellent restaurants asking that eternal question, red or green sauce.  Santa Fe is just a neat town to hang out in.  So there's great golf in the daytime and great stuff to do at night. 

[Adam Clayman]

Bill, Purely speculative on my part as to what he'll actually do when he is finally given the chance, there...but...
There's no way the proposed new course will be built on land as dramatic as the ground Baxter and team built on. There's really not much left since it was used up on the first course.

I've walked the ground a couple of times there to the right of 13 and 14, and while there's some opportunities to use natural features, they just are not as abundant, or dramatic as the original courses site. Vistas though are different. I don't know exactly which part of that area is being used for the proposed course, but, it's scale is vastly different, so I would expect a much different type of course.

[Sean_A]

Sean:

There's a big difference between "alright" and for a course to be rated among the top 25 public as Cochiti once was by Digest. I would not be touting the place for anyone visiting from more than 250 miles.

NM golf has much better golf layouts now than it did when Cochiti first opened.

There are also other comparablly priced layouts worth heading to and they are not as isolated as Cochiti.

Matt

No, I wouldn't say Cochiti is the sort of course one travels any distance (probably more a local course to play a once or twice a year) to specifically play.  However, what it does have going for it is its walkable (not a great walk though) and pretty.  That said, more could have been made of this property.  I can't comment on its relative place in the rankings when it first opened.  It didn't strike me as any better than my local muni - Leslie Park in Ann Arbor.  Looking at the website, $62 is a bit steep, not a price I would be happy to pay. Not that I would take a golf trip to Santa Fe, but if I were there on holiday, I would be inclined to check out Black Mesa unless Paa Ko is a very comfortable walking course. 

Ciao   

A golf trip to Santa Fe is actually a great idea, because there is outstanding golf at Black Mesa and Pa-a-ko Ridge and also a really cool town to explore in Santa Fe itself.  There are terrific Native American art exhibits, solid art galleries, excellent restaurants asking that eternal question, red or green sauce.  Santa Fe is just a neat town to hang out in.  So there's great golf in the daytime and great stuff to do at night. 

Bill

I like Santa Fe, but the golf in that area is nowhere near compelling enough for me to take a golf trip there.  Its more like, I am going to Santa Fe and I may play Black Mesa just to see the freak show.  There are far too many other areas I would rather visit if golf is on the main stage. 

Ciao

[Bill_McBride]

Sean:

There's a big difference between "alright" and for a course to be rated among the top 25 public as Cochiti once was by Digest. I would not be touting the place for anyone visiting from more than 250 miles.

NM golf has much better golf layouts now than it did when Cochiti first opened.

There are also other comparablly priced layouts worth heading to and they are not as isolated as Cochiti.

Matt

No, I wouldn't say Cochiti is the sort of course one travels any distance (probably more a local course to play a once or twice a year) to specifically play.  However, what it does have going for it is its walkable (not a great walk though) and pretty.  That said, more could have been made of this property.  I can't comment on its relative place in the rankings when it first opened.  It didn't strike me as any better than my local muni - Leslie Park in Ann Arbor.  Looking at the website, $62 is a bit steep, not a price I would be happy to pay. Not that I would take a golf trip to Santa Fe, but if I were there on holiday, I would be inclined to check out Black Mesa unless Paa Ko is a very comfortable walking course. 

Ciao   

A golf trip to Santa Fe is actually a great idea, because there is outstanding golf at Black Mesa and Pa-a-ko Ridge and also a really cool town to explore in Santa Fe itself.  There are terrific Native American art exhibits, solid art galleries, excellent restaurants asking that eternal question, red or green sauce.  Santa Fe is just a neat town to hang out in.  So there's great golf in the daytime and great stuff to do at night. 

Bill

I like Santa Fe, but the golf in that area is nowhere near compelling enough for me to take a golf trip there.  Its more like, I am going to Santa Fe and I may play Black Mesa just to see the freak show.  There are far too many other areas I would rather visit if golf is on the main stage. 

Ciao

What I was saying is there's lots more to do there than play golf, enough to go there just for a vacation.  Having golf as good as Black Mesa is a plus.

By contrast I am spending a long weekend the end of January in Tucson because my brother has a house there and wants to use it.  There's not that much to do in Tucson and no golf IMHO as good as Black Mesa.

[Matt_Ward]

Bill:

I have walked the land that is proposed for the 2nd course and clearly the land characteristics that Adam mentioned are different. There's nothing wrong with that. Frankly, the opportunity exists to create a clear differentiation with the original 18 and that's a strong suit because having clones of one another defeats the very purpose in having a second 18.

There's enough movement in the area where the 2nd course is. It clearly is not going to be dead flat or devoid of natural features.

The smart move there is having a completely different set of eyes be used in much the same manner that Mike Keiser used a unknown person (at that time) in David Kidd and then followed-up with Tom Doak and crew.

Sean:

Define "freak show."

By the way places like UNM / Championship (Red Lawrence) and even Paa-Ko Ridge are worth a visit. Is it world class golf at the level of a Pine Valley or Pebble Beach and others of that ilk? No. But it's certainly more than a sideshow to what a tour de force town of Santa Fe provides.

[Bill_McBride]

Sean, like Matt I'm also curious about "freak show."  Black Mesa is no freak show, but can be very difficult if you are either off your tee ball game or try to exceed your personal limitations.

Black Mesa can clearly be managed.  I had a 79 there 18 months ago with 3 birdies and no disasters.  It's lots of fun if you don't try to bite off more than you can chew.  "Freak show" it's not - unless you make it one!

[Matt_Ward]

Bill:

The issue for some people is that certain areas of the USA are defined by other elements ... golf in NM is a recent thing and clearly more momentum needs to be attained before people seeing the many virtues you mentioned.

A visit to Santa Fe is indeed worthwhile on a range of fronts -- and golf is not simply a bystander latching on to the town's magnificence.

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