[Morgan Clawson]

Andy,

Haven't been to NM in years and I miss it.  I played Pueblo de Cochiti years ago and thought the back 9 was pretty solid.  Is that course off the radar screen now?  What about Pinon Hills?  I remember playing that for $16 or close to that.

[Andy Troeger]

Morgan,
Pinon Hills is the 3rd best course in the state behind Paa-Ko/Black Mesa. It doesn't get mentioned that much because it isn't located with the rest of the public offerins in the ABQ/Santa Fe corridor, but it is well worth playing if one can find themselves near Farmington, NM.

Pueblo de Cochiti is a shorter and sportier version of some of the newer offerings. The scenery is tremendous and I think most "average golfers' find it more playable than some of the other desert offerings. I think it still belongs in the top ten in the state but not in the top five.

[Adam Clayman]

I put Pinon Hills second behind Black Mesa. Paa-Koo is not only repetitive in the par 3's it's repetitive on approach to many of the par 4's. Also, the build up of dirt to create the repetitive bunker scheme, and rear containment, is a real turn off. If the land beyond the greens were exposed the frame of reference would have been removed creating doubt issues for the golfer.

The effort placed in the design at Pinon Hills, especially in the fairway and green contouring, is evident and the price differential to Paa Koo is  significant.

News this week on Pinon Hills rate structure.

http://www.daily-times.com/ci_14006964

Also, On the other course nearby in Kirtland, Riverview. Baxter Spann did the back nine here and it deserves mention as being a great back nine.

http://www.daily-times.com/ci_14006835

[Jason Topp]

I put Pinon Hills second behind Black Mesa. Paa-Koo is not only repetitive in the par 3's it's repetitive on approach to many of the par 4's. Also, the build up of dirt to create the repetitive bunker scheme, and rear containment, is a real turn off. If the land beyond the greens were exposed the frame of reference would have been removed creating doubt issues for the golfer.

The effort placed in the design at Pinon Hills, especially in the fairway and green contouring, is evident and the price differential to Paa Koo is  significant.

News this week on Pinon Hills rate structure.

http://www.daily-times.com/ci_14006964

Also, On the other course nearby in Kirtland, Riverview. Baxter Spann did the back nine here and it deserves mention as being a great back nine.

http://www.daily-times.com/ci_14006835

Adam:

If one were to travel to Pinion Hills - what time of year is best for such a trip?  I have really enjoyed my two trips to New Mexico but have the impression that the problem with New Mexico as a golf destintation is that the times of the year when a midwesterner would want to travel (when we cannot play here) and when one can expect sufficient warmth and sunlight to play 36 a day are pretty small.  Even in early October at Black Mesa and Paa Ko Ridge we waited out substantial frost delays and either finished the second round in the dark or could not finish.

[Matt_Ward]

Jason:

Traveling to the Four Corners region is a tough call -- the weather can turn quickly -- especially in the shoulder seasons -- anything in the March / April time frame can work out well -- it can also face cold temps and even snow showers and the like.

Anything earlier than that is entirely a roll of the dice.

If you can head there in late April / early May you have a much better sense of predictability and likely can get the 36 holes you seek to play.

Pinon Hill is indeed worth playing -- one of Ken Dye's best layouts in my mind.

[Brad Huff]

I agree that the newest 9 is too similar to the original 18.  10-18 is most certainly the better of the 3.  I was disappointed when I had to play the new 9 last time I played there.

It's one of those things where the first time you play it it's impressive, but if you've played it multiple times, you realize how the new 9 is just repetitive of the other 18.

Sean:  Ken Dye also did Stonebriar CC here in Dallas.  I can't believe it was $117!!  I think I only paid $85 or so last time I was there.

[Kalen Braley]

Any updates on the new course going in out near Black Mesa? 

[Morgan Clawson]

Andy and Adam,

Thanks for the scoop on Pinon Hills and Pueblo de Cochiti. I played Pinon years ago and I liked it, but the commute from ABQ is pretty long.  I prefered Paa-ko over Pinon before my GCA schooling. I agree that some of the holes are similar, particularly the par 3s.  But hitting a few downhill shots in that beatiful setting ain't all bad for a guy on vacation.

Have you guys played the Nicklaus Sunrsie and Sunset courses?

[Garland Bayley]

Any updates on the new course going in out near Black Mesa? 

Ask Paul Krugmann

[Bill_McBride]

Andy and Adam,

Thanks for the scoop on Pinon Hills and Pueblo de Cochiti. I played Pinon years ago and I liked it, but the commute from ABQ is pretty long.  I prefered Paa-ko over Pinon before my GCA schooling. I agree that some of the holes are similar, particularly the par 3s.  But hitting a few downhill shots in that beatiful setting ain't all bad for a guy on vacation.

Have you guys played the Nicklaus Sunrsie and Sunset courses?

I played Las Campanas before my first visit to Black Mesa in 2003.  I think we played the Sunrise course but could have been the Sunset.  There was one unfathomable par 5 if that clarifies the situation.  I found this Nicklaus course to be very bland compared to both Black Mesa and Pa-a-ko Ridge.

[Rick Shefchik]

Jason:

Traveling to the Four Corners region is a tough call -- the weather can turn quickly -- especially in the shoulder seasons -- anything in the March / April time frame can work out well -- it can also face cold temps and even snow showers and the like.

Anything earlier than that is entirely a roll of the dice.

Reminds me of the worst driving experience I've had -- returning from Tucson via I-25 on the New Mexico-Colorado border in March. We headed north toward the Raton Pass in a light rain, and a half mile from the summit, traffic was at a standstill in a driving snowstorm. Some guy tried to drive a vintage Corvette over the pass, skidded in the snow and he and another car ended up sideways, blocking both lanes of traffic. It was too steep and too slippery for the cars behind them to drive around, so the south side of the mountain began backing up for miles. After an hour, with no plows in sight, my son and I finally got out and pushed our van around the stuck 'Vette while my wife gunned the engine and our daughter stared at the scene from the backseat in total disbelief that this was happening. We got a little traction going, jumped back into the van on the run and managed to make it to the summit. The drive down the north side of the pass was slippery, too, since a lot of snow had accumulated after the last car had gone by, but we managed to slide into Trinidad safe and sound.

Moral: No driving in the New Mexico-Colorado mountains if there's even the tiniest possibility of snow.

[Matt_Ward]

Rick:

Well said ... the most dangerous road I've driven in winter conditions is the famed million-dollar highway between Durango and Ouray.

The next Bond movie could be filmed in that stretch !

p.s. I can remember traveling to the NM / AZ stateline on I-40 and hearing that Santa Fe had a major snowstorm in mid-to-late April. Candidly, if memory serves -- the area has some of the most unpredictable conditions either towards the very early stages of winter or towards the start of spring.

[Andy Troeger]

In terms of the weather, there are certainly parts of the state that can be very treacherous. Most of them have already been detailed. Ironically, Albuquerque almost never gets any signficant snow, but Santa Fe and other parts of the state certainly do. We get a lot of beautiful days year round and especially in the fall--most of the issues come between December 1 and April 15 although we got a dusting of snow in late October this year.

New Mexico gets all four seasons and gets them in the same general times of year as the midwest--its just that our seasons are much milder for the most part unless you get into the mountains. Elevation means a lot. The large percentage of the time the weather is beautiful all times of the year, but when we get a storm it can get very ugly due to the mountains--people expect that in Colorado but New Mexico shares some of that terrain.

I played both of the Las Campanas courses last year. Both are nice but not nearly as good as Paa-Ko or Black Mesa IMO. I'd put Pinon Hills ahead of both as well, but that one is much closer. Rainmakers in Ruidoso is about that same level as well. Cochiti and UNM would be #7/8 and then there's a big cluster of courses that could fill out the rest of my top ten including Twin Warrirors, Santa Ana, Sierra del Rio, Four Hills, and Sandia. I feel like I might be forgetting another one...

[Jim Sweeney]

I agree that Black Mesa and Pinon Hills are 1-2 in the Land of Enchantment, but Paa Ko falls below UNM So. in my book. In the BM v. PR discussion I'd go with BM over PR (origional) 7-3.

Haven't seen Rainmakers in Ruidoso yet. Anyone been there?

[Andy Troeger]

Rainmakers is more similar to Paa-Ko than to anything else in New Mexico. It has some strong holes but in my mind doesn't fit together quite as well. The first six holes are really tough and then it eases up quite a bit from there which is a bit odd from a flow standpoint.

It still surprises me some how little credit Paa-Ko gets here when ALL THREE major US publications rate it as the best course in New Mexico.  Also interesting is that Pinon and Paa-Ko are both Ken Dye designs. I go 9-1 Paa-Ko in 10 rounds. Granted, my biggest criticism of our GD state list is that Pinon Hills isn't in the top ten. #1a is that Las Campanas Sunset is ahead of Black Mesa.

[Matt_Ward]

Jim S:

Concur with your split ratio on the BM v PR side of things.

BM is one of the best buys you can get for such a quality golf experience. Fortunately, there are no homes to intrude on the time playing the layout and it does provide a clear walk alternative for those so inclined.

Andy:

You keep on harping about what the three othert pubs say. Frankly, so much of what the national pubs do say is not really geared towards those who are true denizens of architectural greatness. No doubt they have a number of courses pegged correctly but the discussion on this site includes people with very discerning tastes.

I do like PR for what it provides but when held against other similar mountain-terrain layouts such as Lakota Canyon, to name just one, it would fall behind that layout in my mind.

The bunkering and contouring at Paa-Ko Ridge is forced upon the terrain. Instead of allowing the land to elevate itself -- as BM does, you get the added extra helping of the architect's hand there.

The fact that Digest is out of whack with any real insights is when you see Las Campanas / Sunrise ahead of BM and that UNM gets a bit less attention that it should rightly have.

I also see Sierra del Rio as a sleeper layout worthy of a visit for those looking for a solid layout halfway between Albuquerque and Las Cruces.

[Andy Troeger]

Andy:

You keep on harping about what the three othert pubs say. Frankly, so much of what the national pubs do say is not really geared towards those who are true denizens of architectural greatness. No doubt they have a number of courses pegged correctly but the discussion on this site includes people with very discerning tastes.

My point is more that given the amount of raters for the various magazines that also participate here you'd think there would be more correlation. This site attracts mainly folks that like a certain type of architecture--nothing wrong with that, but Paa-Ko doesn't fit that bill I guess. It is much closer to what Fazio might do with that site than Doak.

Where do you put Pinon Hills compared to Paa-Ko?

For my tastes, this site's batting average is about even with the magazines.  At least here you often get to understand WHY people think they way they do.

[Matt_Ward]

Andy:

I favor Pinon over PK BUT only when the former is kept at firm and fast conditions. I have seen / played Pinon when they overwater the place to such a degree that the architectural elements are thrwarted. The same thing I have seen / played when at Paa-Ko Ridge.

If both courses are firm and fast -- I'd side with Pinon. Just better ground details that promote a healthy interplay between the aerial and ground aspects.

Frankly, when any magazine has either of the Las Campanas courses ahead of Black Mesa I just turn the pages quickly because I know they are totally clueless on overall course quality.

Andy, the reality is that the national pubs are swinging and missing more times than hitting home runs with the choices they make.

[Bill_McBride]

Frankly, when any magazine has either of the Las Campanas courses ahead of Black Mesa I just turn the pages quickly because I know they are totally clueless on overall course quality.

We agree!!   

[Matt_Ward]

Bill:

Curious to know -- what other NM courses have you played besides BM and Paa-Ko ?

[Andy Troeger]

Matt,
Interesting--to each their own I guess.

[Adam Clayman]

Adam:

If one were to travel to Pinion Hills - what time of year is best for such a trip?  I have really enjoyed my two trips to New Mexico but have the impression that the problem with New Mexico as a golf destintation is that the times of the year when a midwesterner would want to travel (when we cannot play here) and when one can expect sufficient warmth and sunlight to play 36 a day are pretty small.  Even in early October at Black Mesa and Paa Ko Ridge we waited out substantial frost delays and either finished the second round in the dark or could not finish.

Jason, Sorry for the tardiness.

If you have the luxury of last minute trips, I would watch the weather for stretches when the four corners might be playable during winter. 50 degrees ish. 36 a day is asking a lot but is likely doable starting in Late Feb. or early March. Otherwise, Early April is a good bet when things in the north and east are still wintery. I suggest that time frame because of the added daylight and hopefully before they get the irrigation systems up and running. There were many a day in Feb. that play was just a treat. Frozen ground adds a dimension to figuring it all out that tests ones ability to take advantage of thump on steroids. Also, as the day progresses and the first inch of turf thaws, changing your club selection to the perfect club is one of the most satisfying experiences a fun golfer can have.

This site attracts mainly folks that like a certain type of architecture--nothing wrong with that, but Paa-Ko doesn't fit that bill I guess. It is much closer to what Fazio might do with that site than Doak.

Andy, I'm certain the diversity on this site is much wider than you give it credit for. Perhaps those who rail against the standardized crap, that has been forced down our throats for well over 2 decades, are just more vocal. Or at least were.

 I just don't see the bias you are eluding to as much as in the early days of GCA.com.

[Andy Troeger]

Adam,
They are still more vocal, although perhaps not as much now as previous participants were when I joined five years ago. I think the site would be more interesting if we had more discussion from folks that liked the "standardized crap" because at least we'd get more invigorating discussions. I wish we could get more of the Golf Digest panel to participate, but I'm more likely to quit than most of them are to join.

I'm admittedly still thinking about the "Best New Private" listing for this year from Golf Digest. Looking at the top of the list, we've discussed Rock Creek in detail and deservedly so, but the rest of the list have been glossed over at best (Pikewood National, Martis Camp, Cornerstone, Rainmakers, etc). At least we've talked about the top courses on the public list, but perhaps that's a function of accessibility.

[Steve Okula]

I hate it when people start interesting threads about far away courses, and the only way I can find out who designed them and when is by searching Google.

Would it cause undue hardship to identify the architect when introducing a specific course thread?

[Bill_McBride]

Bill:

Curious to know -- what other NM courses have you played besides BM and Paa-Ko ?

Las Campanas (which prompted my remark, Black Mesa is far more interesting, challenging, etc etc, fun, etc) and Cochiti.

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