[Bill Brightly]

Robert Trent Jones, 1958. Neat little hole, about 370 from the tips. Safe play is right of all the bunkers, or you can cut off as much of the dogleg as you dare.

[Mike Policano]

Bill, nice pictures.  Clearly 16 is one of the best holes at Tuxedo. 

Cheers, Mike

[Jeff Spittel]

Love Tuxedo. It's in a very pastoral setting and it has some really cool holes.

[Ron Csigo]

I've never played Tuxedo.  Does the course have any similarities to Mansion Ridge (Nicklaus) considering they're in the same neighborhood? 

[Bill Brightly]

I don't think you will find many similarities. Tuxedo is a sporty mountain course, with a beautiful little creek meandering through the property. The fescue areas are not in play but really seem to fit the setting. It has a great many slight doglegs, which provides for lots of interesting angles. It is playing fast and firm, and the greens have a wide variety of tilts, so you really need to hit the proper side of the pin.

[Robert Mercer Deruntz]

Another view of this great hole



I think that this may be among the best RTJ courses in metro-NY.  There are quite a few really well designed holes on this course.

[TEPaul]

BillB:

The Lesley Cup is going to Tuxedo Park GC this year in less than a month. Tell me something about the architectural evolution of the golf course. The course is really really old, right? Who did the course originally and what-all did RTJ do there?

Thanks.

PS:
We just got an email from the Lesley Cup's "Ghost" and he said he just played there and we needed to bring our "A" games as he thought there were about 10 "double bogey" holes there. Do you think so?

[Bill Brightly]

Tom,

I will do a little research about the architectual history. This is what I know now. The club is very old, it's first course was built in 1886. RTJ was brought in to build a new course on a different site in the 50's. The club sits on the oustide of Tuxedo Park, a really old, really wealthy, gated community with some great old stone mansions that ring a wonderful lake, full of trophy brown trout that almost NO ONE fishes for! This was one of  NYC's first getaway locations for the rich. If you belong to the golf club, you also have access to the old clubhouse in the park. When leaving the course, I sometimes turn right and drive through the gate to Rt 17 S, and sometimes get lost, last time I had to flag down the security patrol to lead me out...it is a MAZE of winding roads...don't try it at night, you will NEVER get out! But if a member can guide you, it is very cool.

There is kind of an ecletic membership made of plain old golfers and people from the Park. Not quite the typical equity membership structure.

I dont think you need to make a slew of doubles there, but if you miss the greens, the recovery shots are tough because of the F & F conditions. I mentioned the little stream wihich borders a few holes, and there are some wetland/red stake areas to be careful of.

I hit lots of 3 woods off the tee, even from the back tees: Holes 1, 2, 5, 7 (because there is a STUPID tree encroaching on the left of the tee) 12, and 16. I hit 5 wood on 14, 220 max leaves you 115. Definitely ask your caddy how far you want to hit it on the doglegs, and what side of the green is best.

Hole 9 is a long straight away par 4 bordered by the road the whole way, which is unfortunate, only bad thing I can say about at the course.

Now that I think about it, I should hit 3 wood on all 3 of the par 5's, I cant reach in two, and they each present a strong defense at 50 yards (each one different) and I think they are best approached from 75-100. You'll see. The par 5 8th is rough up a hill for the last 50 yards to a wild left-to-right tilting green, Hole 10 is sometimes reachable but the uphill green is well bunkered by two bunkers 30 yards short of the green, u DONT want to be in those, the green sits up high and is VERY shallow and very firm, you need to spin it.  And 18 has the stream 50 yards short of the green, I need to SMOKE a driver to think about going for it in two.



Definitely a fun course, and a real change of pace course, especially since it is only 25 minutes from NYC. Nothing similar to it that I can think of.

[Mike Policano]

Tom, to add to what Bill said, Tuxedo is a difficult first time play.  The opener is an uphill par 4 which is blind from the tee.  The green has a lot of slope.

The second is about a 90 degree dogleg right which is difficult to judge off the tee the first time you play it.

The fourth is a good par 4 with a tough green.

The eighth has a wild green.  You have to make sure you take enough club for the approach. 

The eleventh has a very tough green.

The 14th can cause a lot of trouble on the approach.

The 16th is a very good hole and the 17 is a par 3 over water the entire way from a unique angle.

In summary, Tuxedo is a course that will jump up and grab you if you are playing it for the first time.

[Matt_Ward]

Agree completely with those who have mentioned the demanding start at Tuxedo. It's vey e-z to get derailed by the first two holes --especially the 1st.

What surprises me is that even RTJ himself failed to really highlight how good the course is. Much of what Trent Jones did became easy fodder for critics who saw his work as being dull and forumlaic to a fault. The work at Tuxedo is quite refreshing because the various holes are so clearly different and best of all how they merge with the existing land in such a winning manner.

[ChipOat]

Tom Paul,

I believe RTJ built this course from scratch in the 1950's.  It's located outside Tuxedo Park's south gate and is almost as close to Upper Saddle River, NJ as it is to the town of Tuxedo, NY.  The original course was a quaint little affair located inside the boundaries of Tuxedo Park that was ultimately deemed to be too quaint and too little for the post-WWII expansion and prosperity.

The bifurcation between the suburbanite "Jersey golfers" and the Court Tennis/Racquets-playing Park residents has always been a subject of conversation in those parts ever since the new golf course was built and a larger active membership was required to support it.

[Matt_Ward]

The phrase "sleeper" is often overused for many courses -- but Tuxedo is indeed a solid fit for such a linkage to that term.

Plenty of different looks and types of holes when there.

Tough for many people to steal away time to make the short trip to get there given all the other top tier courses that are in the greater metro NYC area. Time spent at Tuxedo is cerainly worth a peak for those who venture there.

[TEPaul]

I just returned last night from The Lesley Cup at this course. Definitely a fun and sporty golf course since they were running some speeds on those greens the likes of which I have not seen before perhaps even including Oakmont when it's fast. The greens were very firm too (virtually impossible to break the turf on any approach shots to greens).

For some reason I've always felt that most of RTJ's best and most interesting work was in the 1950s and this course just adds to my opinion about that.

The final dinner was inside Tuxedo Park at the main clubhouse. That as well as an amazing tennis facility (courst tennis, racquets etc) was a trip.

From the feel of it I have a hunch that Tuxedo Park inside those gates is not even part of the United States of America; I think it might be its own little separate nation!  

The place was begun about 125 years ago by the Lorillard family of tobacco fame. Our host mentioned the original golf course began in 1891 which would arguably probably make it one of the first dozen or so courses in the USA. This place has some real style----extreme style, no question about it.

Next year we're in Massachussets at TCC. Not a bad venue either.   

[Ronald Montesano]

I'll be at best a curmudgeon, at worst a prick, and state that those first three pictures may be good pictures, but they are not functional, telling pictures of the golf hole.  They eliminate the entire right side of the hole (thanks to RMD for adding his own complementary shot), leaving half the story untold.  If the hole is that good, give us the entire shot.

[JNC Lyon]

Agree completely with those who have mentioned the demanding start at Tuxedo. It's vey e-z to get derailed by the first two holes --especially the 1st.

What surprises me is that even RTJ himself failed to really highlight how good the course is. Much of what Trent Jones did became easy fodder for critics who saw his work as being dull and forumlaic to a fault. The work at Tuxedo is quite refreshing because the various holes are so clearly different and best of all how they merge with the existing land in such a winning manner.

Matt,

How does Tuxedo compare to Crag Burn in Buffalo?  This is another Trent Jones course that is unknown outside of the region but is a true gem. 

I think this is one of the reasons that Trent Jones gets a bad rap among us GCA types.  His most high-profile courses are well-known because of their presence in championship golf, meaning that they are long, demanding, and often devoid of interest.  These are the courses that Trent Jones would have highlighted because of their status.  He would have advertised the Tuxedoes or Crag Burns because they did not fit the mold of the architecture that he pioneered in the 1950s.

Bill,

Thanks for the pics and analysis of Tuxedo.  Trent Jones was a very underrated builder of short par fours.  Holes like this show that he understood the mind of the golfer very well.

[TEPaul]

RonaldM:

You're right, there's isn't a photo on this thread that shows #16 as it looks from the tee. The hole is a real swinging dogleg around high fescue, a narrow WH and fairway bunkers depending on the distance ability of a golfer. For the first timer it certainly isn't obvious where to drive the ball and there're plenty of mistakes one can make taking the wrong line with a well hit shot.

On the first photo on this thread the photographer could've shown the entire hole but he chose to focus on the green-end and the 17th green.

If one hits it too far right he can go right into a WH which certainly doesn't look like one. If one goes straight over a stone bridge he can go right on through the fairway near a big tree. If you take a bit more agressive line to the left there is a ton of fairway out on the right which isn't that obvious off the tee. A little more left and you are beginning to deal with those fairway bunkers some of which are a pretty good carry.

But the deal on this hole is that green!!

During the two days of the Lesley Cup the pin might have been where it is in that photo perhaps because there may not be any pinnable greenspace on that green from where that pin is all the way to the front of the green. There is a basic peripendicular ridge from just short of that pin that flows all the way to near the front. If you don't get over that ridge pretty near where that pin is in that photo the ball will filter all the way to the very front or off. From there it's a very tough putt over that ridge to that pin not so much because of the rise but because of the severe right to left break. Obviously all this was magnified for us because those greenspeeds were as fast as Oakmont at its fastest (those were some of the fastest speeds I have ever seen on a golf course)!

But #16 is a very interesting hole with a lot to think about from the tee shot to the approach to the putting!

I asked if all that rock around the green was the result of something called "glacial moraine" but no one seemed to know the definition of a glacial moraine.

Actually Tuxedo Park golf course has a ton of variety about it in all kinds of ways; matter of fact to such an extent I would say RTJ must have thought it all through pretty carefully. To me there is only one hole out there that pretty much looks completely "normal" and that would be #13, and that one has a pretty challenging right greenside bunker that requires an aerial carry to about the right 2/3 of the green.

As far as the scoring challenge of Tuxedo the way it was set up this week with incredibly fast greens and pretty firm ones too (no real pitch marks) I guess the best example from the Lesley Cup would be Canadian golf architect Graham Cooke. Graham always plays #1 for Quebec and over the years he has been pretty hard for anyone to beat. I think he shot even par in the first day's singles matches and a little over that in the second days singles. He won the stroke play trophy of the Lesley Cup which has something like five trophies. Graham could be one of the very best longtime amateurs Canada has ever produced. I think he holds seven Canadian national championships and he came in second this year in the British Senior Amateur. He did lose a point in the second day's singles matches to New York's Alan Small though who swept all his matches.

[TEPaul]

Frankly it would be pretty interesting to go through the holes of Tuxedo Park and talk about most of them all from the standpoint of variety of look and shot value challenge. Aesthetics might be interesting too but perhaps less so.

The only real question I have about any of the holes (it's a question and not necessarily a complaint) is the 1st. I was trying to figure out why in the world he would have pushed that green that high up off of its natural (preconstruction) surrounds. I think I may have an answer but of course RTJ is not around to confirm or deny it. If I'm right it would be a good example though of the various ways the end of one hole might effect the beginning of the next!

[Bill Brightly]

OK, Ron, here are better pictures of the 16th hole from the tee, showing the right woods (which I have been in...)

[Patrick_Mucci]

TEPaul,

Surprisingly, you're right about Tuxedo Park, it's like being in another world.

How many court tennis courts have you come across ?
I think there's only a dozen in the US.  Boston, Phillly and a few others.

I like the golf course, it's got a unique flavor to it.

I think it's flown under the radar because that's the way the club wants it.

Ron, # 16 is a good golf hole.

[TEPaul]

Pat:

I don't believe there have ever been more than seven court tennis courts in America. Tuxedo's is not the first one I've seen but it is the first one where I've seen a demonstration of how the game is played. The structure of a court tennis court and the makeup of the game is traditional apparently to what the monks once played with the roof (to play off on the left) and a few other replications of the original street or monastery or whatever. Even the actual strokes apparently must be necessarily somewhat different from tennis if a player wants his arm to last.


We also were given a demonstration of racquets. That little hard ball travels up to 140mph and to say it is dangerous is sort of putting it mildly.

The golf course is just outside Tuxedo Park itself (which is pretty hard to get into) which is something like going back in time. Apparently the place is around 2,000 acres with the beautiful lake and semi-mountainous lovely mansions looking down upon it. I think there are something like 175 residents inside Tuxedo Park.

The golf course has a lot going for it. I think it's an excellent example of both why RTJ became the famous archtect he did when he did as well as why some on here probably don't like his style as well as some of the modern architecture from say around 1990 on when SOME modern golf architecture really did hit something of a renaissance back to some of the Golden Age philosophies.

But I mean if you take a careful look at many of the strategies of Tuxedo Park it's hard to deny it is very good stuff. A good example would be the green and green-end of #10! I mean there is just a bunch of really good optional stuff going on with that hole at the green and green-end! And there are a number of others that offer the same level of varietal challenges.

It's not exactly my style to say something like this but I don't think there is anything remotely resembling a bad golf hole on that course!

I've also said in the past that I'm no expert on RTJ architecture but from what I have seen of his over the years I think his best and most interesting work was from the 1950s, even the early to mid 1950s. I think sometimes the same can be said for Dick Wilson, arguably RTJ's primary American competitor. It would not even surprise me if some day these two have their own renaissance somehow and if and when they do then I suppose one could fairly say golf course architecture would have come full cycle.

But the most interesting question for me for the future is whether or not golf architecture has somewhere else really distinct to go in type and style  that perhaps has never been seen or done before? 

[SPDB]

There are currently 10 court tennis courts in the US, but there were more at one time (Myopia still has one that is out of use). I play only occasionally now, but used to play a lot more. 

[TEPaul]

SPDB:

Other than the total number of court tennis courts in the US are there any in any other localities other than New York (Tuxedo Park, NYC and LI) and Boston, Philadelphia and Aiken S.C.? I think the professional at Tuxedo Park mentioned that some others had been built relatively recently but I can't remember if he mentioned where.

[TEPaul]

This isn't the first time this has happened to me with a golf course but it is pretty rare; it's taken a few days to sink in just what a remarkable challenge, and highly interesting one, Tuxedo GC really was. I do admit that a lot of it was probably the way the course was set up last week but nevertheless the multiple strategic options and the nuances and consequences of so many of them was really remarkable, as was the comprehensive variety of the architectural and strategic offerings hole after hole. If anyone is interested in discussing them hole by hole I would be glad to.

I know RTJ sometimes gets a bad rap on here for various reasons but Tuxedo is not one he should be rapped for at least not for its strategic and optional challenge and interest. A lot of it may be manufactured in one way or an other but even so he surely did think it through very well in what all any golfer faces throughout a round there.

[SPDB]

TEPaul:
There is one in Newport (which i believe dated back to the beginning of the 20th century, but was abandoned and rebuilt in the 80s) and a new court was built at a club in D.C. sometime in the 1990s.  Apart from that there are two other courts which are on current or former private estates - the Payne Whitney estate in Manhasset and Jay Gould's in Lakewood, NJ.

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