[Phil_the_Author]

Thanks for the reply on that Tom. I thought there were newpspaer accounts of his returning citing dissatisfaction with how he had been received over here...

[Rick Shefchik]

The Minneapolis Golf Club's web site says they voted sometime after August 1916 to move their course from Golden Valley to its current location in St. Louis Park (both Minneapolis inner-ring suburbs.)

"The Scottish golfer and golf course architect Willie Park Jr. was hired to lay out the new course, and an existing four-room farmhouse was converted to a clubhouse. The club's first event at its new location, a match play versus bogey, was held on May 19, 1917."

No wonder he was in demand. That's an awfully quick turnaround.

Rick
That was a temporary nine hole golf course, I don't believe the full eighteen was completed until 1918, and as we discussed Park never claimed Minneapolis as golf course he designed, at least he did not list on his 1922 or 1923 lists, and those lists are both quite comprehensive. I think there is more to the story than we know at present.

I agree, Philip. There is more to this story. The MGC website suggests an unbroken link between Park's original design and Donald Ross's re-design in 1919. But Ross didn't claim Minneapolis Golf Club as one of his courses in his 1930 pamphlet, and Park didn't put MGC on his list, either. I wonder if anyone knows what really happened. It's a fine golf course and somebody who knew what they were doing had to have had a hand in it.

The other curious thing is that your newspaper article indicates that the permanent original nine was to open later in the summer of 1917, and that's still very fast work, especially considering the usually brutal Minnesota winters.

[TEPaul]

Those Leach articles are interesting and if there is any truth in them (which I see no reason why there wouldn't be) they seem to confirm that long held belief that it was Willie Park and Huntercombe (and Sunningdale) in the English Heathlands that are the evolutionary links to the good INLAND architecture to come apparently all around the world! I think it is also true to say that the best of our early American courses and those interesting "amateur/sportsmen" architects who did them made the journey to study those early INLAND Heathland courses as much as they did the famous seaside linksland courses that were considerably older! Obviously the reason they made that early journey to those early great heathland courses was because most of those early "amateur/sportsmen" architects understood they too would be working with INLAND sites and not seaside sites that resembled the natural linksland!

[Willie_Dow]

Joe Murdock loaned me his copy of "The Parks of Musselburgh" and I copied Willies output in that book.  There was never  mention of any financial problems.  There are many great references of his description of "the game" and the "layout and maintenance of the course courses, the relationship of player and caddie, and the rules and etiquette"

My thoughts are in favor of his great contribution to the game !

[Bill_McBride]

Those Leach articles are interesting and if there is any truth in them (which I see no reason why there wouldn't be) they seem to confirm that long held belief that it was Willie Park and Huntercombe (and Sunningdale) in the English Heathlands that are the evolutionary links to the good INLAND architecture to come apparently all around the world! I think it is also true to say that the best of our early American courses and those interesting "amateur/sportsmen" architects who did them made the journey to study those early INLAND Heathland courses as much as they did the famous seaside linksland courses that were considerably older! Obviously the reason they made that early journey to those early great heathland courses was because most of those early "amateur/sportsmen" architects understood they too would be working with INLAND sites and not seaside sites that resembled the natural linksland!

I just played Huntercombe, where I believe the membership has done their best to maintain the historical character of the course.  It has a very historical feeling, very much the evolutionary feeling Tom mentions.  No chocolate drops but a lot of flat on the ground greens that come straight out of the fairways with a lot of contour that is lay of the land.  There are cross ditches in front of several of the greens, with shrubbery growing out of it.  I was truly entranced, it is a terrific heathland course with parkland feeling.  Many of the holes are surrounded by forest and some of the green to tee walks feel like forest paths.  A lot of the greens are front to back sloping with little building up of the rear of these greens.  The members are very happy with the course and will resist any movement to "modernize."    Thank heavens!

[Bill_McBride]

P.S. re Huntercombe............after all these decades, there are still not many houses to be seen on the periphery of the golf course.  It's sad that Park lost a fortune over an infeasible plan.  Makes one wonder who was his advisor

[Sean_A]

Tommy Mac

Successful?  Maybe critically, but I don't think Park was financially successful.  I get the impression he was chasing his tail ever since the Huntercombe debacle.  

I think you are right about a sense of duty for folks even though they were past fighting age.  Modern wars don't entail anywhere near as much sacrifice on the populace as the WWI & II.  In fact, I think the goal these days is for governments to persuade the populace to carry on as normal.  

I would have also thought that crossing the Atlantic was a very dodgy business by 1915 and to some degree a sign of desperation for the traveler.  

Ciao

Sean
According to his advertisement listing his designs circa late 1922/early 1923, he designed or redesigned 62 golf courses in the US and Canada. I believe his going rate was $1500 (plus expenses) for a design or $2500 (plus expenses) for a design and supervision. That adds up to a lot of money back then. He had to be one of the busiest architects in America during those seven years, if not the busiest.

Tommy Mac

Again, because Park was busy and made money doesn't mean he was out of financial troubles.  Who knows, perhaps the American work got his head above water and with that he died.  Personally, I think he was in the shitter from the Huntercombe deal and this was the reason he tried to make a go of it in the USA.  I don't believe his heart was in it.  Remember, he was ~50 at this time, with a war on.  Just to get to the States would have required risking life and limb.  It all adds up to financial troubles to me.  It is one of the tragic stories of golf for few had such a prolific career as Park in all facets of the game.  

Ace

You are right.  Huntercombe is a marvel of a course and should be seen by all and any who have an interest in architecture and its evolution. I have always said it is worth forgoing a day on a London big gun to see because its one of the last of its kind. 

Ciao

[Tony_Muldoon]

Great articles and more proof that a proper biography is needed, I can’t remember gaining any impression of his character before this.


However as much as I admire Huntercombe I am puzzled by the lack of reference to Sunningdale, which preceded it and was more famous at the time.  Contemporary revisionism in favour of Colt?

[Sean_A]

Great articles and more proof that a proper biography is needed, I can’t remember gaining any impression of his character before this.


However as much as I admire Huntercombe I am puzzled by the lack of reference to Sunningdale, which preceded it and was more famous at the time.  Contemporary revisionism in favour of Colt?

Tony

A lot of people thought Huntercombe was the better course until Colt made his changes.  I would dearly have loved to see Sunny Old before it was changed. 

Ciao

[Tony_Muldoon]

Sean I think we need a thread on what Colt did at Sunningdale.  Everyone accepts it as improved by Colt but the (admittedly lazy) official centenary book says it wasn't that much.  This winter I'm going to do a little digging but if anyone knows more then I'd be pleased to put the official view up on here.

Whatever came later the routing hasn't changed much and the length anticipated the coming impact of the Haskell. Pretty revolutionary stuff.  Then again perhaps Park just stretched the holes to make more room for housing!

[Sean_A]

Sean I think we need a thread on what Colt did at Sunningdale.  Everyone accepts it as improved by Colt but the (admittedly lazy) official centenary book says it wasn't that much.  This winter I'm going to do a little digging but if anyone knows more then I'd be pleased to put the official view up on here.

Whatever came later the routing hasn't changed much and the length anticipated the coming impact of the Haskell. Pretty revolutionary stuff.  Then again perhaps Park just stretched the holes to make more room for housing!

I too would like to know more about Colt's changes at Sunny Old.  I am of the impression that they are not so great as to claim sole proprietorship of the design. 

Ciao

[TEPaul]

Bill McBride:

Regarding your post #29 that quotes my post #27, my basic point is to explore what some of those who journeyed abroad from America who were responsible for some of the best inland courses in America in the early days (mid-1890s until the teens) were looking at and studying in the English Heathlands. I'd like to explore it because I have the feeling that they knew back then that a few of those early heathland courses may've represented the first really good INLAND golf architecture ever done, and given these men (from America) knew they too would be doing and were doing INLAND courses it was these first seminal heathland courses they journeyed abroad to study.

Next we need to explore all the reasons that contributed to making those first few seminal heathland courses and their architecture etc so different (and so much better?) than anything that had come before them anywhere INLAND in the world-----if, in fact, that really was the case back then. I would suggest that some of those reasons were:

1. A better soil and soil structure (in the Heathlands) than previous INLAND courses.
2. The realization that good INLAND architecture would take far more time to make than had previously been devoted to it.
3. The realization that it would require more money to do than had previously been devoted to it.
4. Agronomic realities and practicalities (massive seeding vs the previous use of existing meadowland grasses) that had never been considered before on INLAND courses.
5. Perhaps mowing (machinery and maintenance realities (fertilizers and agronomic remediations) that had never been considered before on INLAND courses.

Some or most of this may've been prompted and encouraged by that old linksman complaint of previous INLAND golf and courses of "Nae Links, nae golf."

[Bill_McBride]

Bill McBride:

Regarding your post #29 that quotes my post #27, my basic point is to explore what some of those who journeyed abroad from America who were responsible for some of the best inland courses in America in the early days (mid-1890s until the teens) were looking at and studying in the English Heathlands. I'd like to explore it because I have the feeling that they knew back then that a few of those early heathland courses may've represented the first really good INLAND golf architecture ever done, and given these men (from America) knew they too would be doing and were doing INLAND courses it was these first seminal heathland courses they journeyed abroad to study.

Next we need to explore all the reasons that contributed to making those first few seminal heathland courses and their architecture etc so different (and so much better?) than anything that had come before them anywhere INLAND in the world-----if, in fact, that really was the case back then. I would suggest that some of those reasons were:

1. A better soil and soil structure (in the Heathlands) than previous INLAND courses.
2. The realization that good INLAND architecture would take far more time to make than had previously been devoted to it.
3. The realization that it would require more money to do than had previously been devoted to it.
4. Agronomic realities and practicalities (massive seeding vs the previous use of existing meadowland grasses) that had never been considered before on INLAND courses.
5. Perhaps mowing (machinery and maintenance realities (fertilizers and agronomic remediations) that had never been considered before on INLAND courses.

Some or most of this may've been prompted and encouraged by that old linksman complaint of previous INLAND golf and courses of "Nae Links, nae golf."

Another issue would certainly be one of geographic location.  The early inland courses were built near population centers - the courses around London, Alwoodley near Leeds, etc.  The golfing clientele wanted to play near home and not have to take a train to the links near the sea.  This in turn mandated learning how to build good courses in different terrain and soils.

On the links little construction was required; in the heathland and parkland courses, there was a need for the agronomy and construction required.  From the evolutionary perspective, those early gems were simple and flat on the ground, Huntercombe being a brilliant example.   I haven't seen Sunningdale Old but I suspect it was similar to Huntercombe pre-Colt.

Those would have been the inland courses the Americans who traveled to England before WWI would have seen.  They and the traveling Brits like Park and Fowler took those principles to America with them.  CB Macdonald was pretty far ahead of them, don't you think?

[Christoph Meister]

There’s an old one called The Parks of Musselburgh which has a decent reputation but I've never seen it.

2005. Willie Park Junior -The man who took Golf to the World by Walter Stephen.  
Covers the ground in a very odd fashion with huge gaps.  Somehow the fact that the author was a milkman seems relevant to him and when he plays Portstewart he fails to note that, at the least, 50% of the course has nothing to do with Park.  I can’t recommend.

On pages 238 to 242 of this book the author describes the current Vienna GC golf course at Freudenau: "The first hole is very open, flat, has trees on either side  and the big green, in true Willie Park style, has four bunkers with safe access between four and eight o'clock", later he continuous "Every Willie Park course has fine qualities, and Vienna has plenty of those"

This is what I call a most interesting statement given the fact that the golf course at Freudenau was opened 1949, more than 20 years after Willie Park died! The course has nothing to do with the pre-war Prater golf course a few Km down the road. The original nine holes of that course were designed by Willie Park, the course was then extended to 18 holes in 1930, only after loosing a few of the original holes to a new football stadium (see enclosed picture from Mai 1933)....this means Freudenau has nothing, just nothing to do with Willie Park....You can probably understand why I also have trouble recommending "Willie Park Junior - The Man who took Golf to the World" by Walter Stephen.

[TEPaul]

"Those would have been the inland courses the Americans who traveled to England before WWI would have seen.  They and the traveling Brits like Park and Fowler took those principles to America with them.  CB Macdonald was pretty far ahead of them, don't you think?"


Bill:

I'm not sure I would say that. It depends on how one looks at Macdonald's original Chicago G.C. I guess. Otherwise there were some others over here who appear to have been ahead of Macdonald with producing quality architecture, at least chronologically, including Leeds (Myopia), Emmet (GCGC) and perhaps the Fownses (Oakmont).  Over there it appears Park, Colt, Fowler and perhaps even Mackenzie may've been ahead of Macdonald with quality architecture. I realize there are many, including many on here who seem inclined to give Macdonald the nod with most everything but I'm not sure that is the factual history of it. With Macdonald's extreme ability at promotion it may look that way to some with his NGLA but again I don't think I would agree with the factual history of that. I'm not trying to take a thing away from Macdonald and NGLA, it's just that it does not appear to be the first quality architecture outside the linksland over here or over there.
 
 
 

[Bill_McBride]

"Those would have been the inland courses the Americans who traveled to England before WWI would have seen.  They and the traveling Brits like Park and Fowler took those principles to America with them.  CB Macdonald was pretty far ahead of them, don't you think?"


Bill:

I'm not sure I would say that. It depends on how one looks at Macdonald's original Chicago G.C. I guess. Otherwise there were some others over here who appear to have been ahead of Macdonald with producing quality architecture, at least chronologically, including Leeds (Myopia), Emmet (GCGC) and perhaps the Fownses (Oakmont).  Over there it appears Park, Colt, Fowler and perhaps even Mackenzie may've been ahead of Macdonald with quality architecture. I realize there are many, including many on here who seem inclined to give Macdonald the nod with most everything but I'm not sure that is the factual history of it. With Macdonald's extreme ability at promotion it may look that way to some with his NGLA but again I don't think I would agree with the factual history of that. I'm not trying to take a thing away from Macdonald and NGLA, it's just that it does not appear to be the first quality architecture outside the linksland over here or over there.
 
 

Assuming a 1907 c9mpletion date for NGLA, what do you think would have been "the first quality architecture" in America?  I am less than knowledgeable about some of the early courses.

[TEPaul]

"Assuming a 1907 c9mpletion date for NGLA, what do you think would have been "the first quality architecture" in America?  I am less than knowledgeable about some of the early courses."


Bill:

I believe without question the first quality architecture in America was Myopia followed by GCGC (Macdonald himself even said so). One might throw Oakmont in there as well as it was begun in 1903 and a preconstruction routing map of the course (1903) really doesn't look all that different from the way the course turned out.

Furthermore, 1907 was essentially the beginning date of the creation of NGLA. 1910 or even 1911 was the completion date or the official opening date.
 
 

[Tom MacWood]

Poor Willie Park-Jr, one of the few threads devoted to the man morphs into one of a thousand amateur/sportsmen threads.

[TEPaul]

"Poor Willie Park-Jr, one of the few threads devoted to the man morphs into one of a thousand amateur/sportsmen threads."


Perhaps not Poor Willie Park Jr at all if one considers that his breakthrough, hallmark work in the English Heathlands with his Sunningdale and Huntercombe was something of an inspirational and educational magnet for the great work of the likes of Myopia, GCGC or even Merion East and Pine Valley if all those amateur/sportsmen architects who created those great works went abroad to specifically study the likes of Sunningdale and Huntercombe as the first examples of really good INLAND architecture!

Arguably a subject and evolutionary architectural connection that may be a bit more interesting and of significance than the limited consequences of a possible Willie Park Jr financial GB bankruptcy that pushed him into a long-term emigration to America!  

But if you think Park's specific GB bankruptcy holds some significant point for Park and for golf course architecture perhaps you should just try to make that point, if in fact you have one! I, for one, am all ears!

[Tom MacWood]

Arguably a subject and evolutionary architectural connection that may be a bit more interesting and of significance than the limited consequences of a possible Willie Park Jr financial GB bankruptcy that pushed him into a long-term emigration to America!  

If you don't like the subject matter of this thread start your own thread.

[TEPaul]

Tom MacWood:

What is the subject matter of this thread? Or what are the limitations on the subject matter of this thread?

If Willie Park Jr or something he did in architecture had some significant influence on others or on something others who created important did would you not say that relates to Willie Park Jr?

I think a few courses he did in the Heathlands did have a significant influence on some others and on what some others did later in the way of real quality architecture but since those men were considered to be the best of the "amateur/sportsman" architects you seem to take exception to it. Why is that?

However, if that seems to be OT to this thread how about this:

"I believe his going rate was $1500 (plus expenses) for a design or $2500 (plus expenses) for a design and supervision. That adds up to a lot of money back then. He had to be one of the busiest architects in America during those seven years, if not the busiest?"

Where did you come to that belief of that price structure between 1917 and 1924? I ask because I recall you said you thought Colt charging George Crump $10,000 for about a week's work while at Pine Valley in 1913 conformed to Colt's price structure of that time. I would say something seems amiss here somewhere on price structure if Colt charged Crump $10,000 for a week which certainly did not include the supervision of the design in 1913 and Park charged $2,500 for a design and the supervision of a design ten years later, wouldn't you?  

Is that appropriate to this thread about Willie Park Jr? After-all it does have to do with his financial life in golf architecture, doesn't it?
 
 

[TEPaul]

Tom MacWood:

Would it be true to say it is your opinion that it's often easier on here to make your point by just ignoring seemingly appropriate questions rather than trying to answer them? Or expressed somewhat differently what do you think is appropriate that you might be able to answer with something other than just another question? 

[TEPaul]

I guess the answer is that you think it's true to say it's better to ignore appropriate questions than to try to answer them. No problem; it certainly isn't the first time nor, I suspect, will it be the last time.

[Tom MacWood]

Colt charged a percentage of the overall cost of the project, and the percentage changed if overseeing construction was involved. I don't recall the exact percentage, but I think it was around 5% or 6%. $10,000 has always seemed high to me; I believe Colonel Baker was the source of that figure.

[TEPaul]

"Colt charged a percentage of the overall cost of the project, and the percentage changed if overseeing construction was involved. $10,000 has always seemed high to me; I believe Colonel Baker was the source of that figure."


Me too, but when that figure was questioned on this website some years ago those questioned that included PV history book writer Jim Finegan (and me) were basically accused of trying to minimize Colt's contribution to Pine Valley to inaccurately promote Crump's contribution Those threads are still in the back pages. Joe Baker was the source of that $10,000 figure, and the source of his information on that $10,000 fee was in a remembrance close to forty years after the fact when poor Joe Baker was a very very old man!

But the question here is---does it make sense that Colt charged PV $10,000 for only a week's work in 1913 if Willie Park Jr was apparently charging #1,500 for plans and $2,500 for plans and supervision between 1916 and 1925? I would say it doesn't make much sense. And frankly, during the single week Colt was at Pine Valley (May-June, 1913) it is likely that no one had much idea what the cost of the project of Pine Valley would be, certainly given the way Crump did that project which was over quite a few years. This is why if one really wants to understand the evolutionary history of the way Pine Valley was designed and created one needs to understand not just what Crump did BEFORE Colt ever arrived but also all that he did in the next five years AFTER Colt left and never came back. And still in 1918 when Crump died suddenly the golf course was not finished with 18 holes open for play.

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