[Tom MacWood]

Willie Park Jr. left Great Britain for the USA in 1916, at the height of WWI. How would that have been perceived at home? Would they (the public) have taken into account his age and/or financial problems? After Willie Park lost a fortune at Huntercombe, one of the results was he went on a breakneck design spree, designing numerous courses in the UK and on the Continent. Despite the great number of commissions he was forced to file for personal bankruptcy in 1912. What would have been the consequences of going through bankruptcy in 1912? Might that have been an influence on his move to the USA?

[Bill_McBride]

Just played the wonderful Huntercombe course on arrival day for the Buda Cup.  Great course, loved the greens that, while heavily contoured in some places, are built flat on the ground in all but one hole.

Curious about how Park lost his fortune on Huntercombe.  Was it a real estate speculation?   That would have been hard to believe until a couple of years ago!

[Tony_Muldoon]

Bill as I understand it the people behind Sunningdale employed Park as course architect and then started to develop houses around that course. They also sold Park and some investors the Huntercombe land for a similar scheme.

Park seemingly put all his money into it but didn’t understand “Location, Location, Location”.  Sunningdale was close to Woking GC and commutable from London. The clubhouse was 5 mins walk form the station. Huntercombe was a much longer train journey to Henley plus a car ride (9 or 17 miles can’t remember).  In order to encourage people to join the club had two Rolls Royce’s to pick one up. One was notoriously unreliable and although the course was completed only one lot was sold.


I’m sure Tom is onto something re bankruptcy (btw have you got copies of the legal documents because I don’t think the recent Park book mentions this at all).   The kind of businessmen who were setting up new clubs would have been wary of dealing with a bankrupt and certainly wouldn’t have wanted to advance any funds. Colt didnt consider him mush of a rival.

[Bill_McBride]

Thanks, Tony.  That's a sad tale but not unlike the fate today of many real estate speculators.  Sounds like Wilie should have stayed in the design business.

[Tom MacWood]

The entire episode is a mystery to me. First how his countrymen would look at him leaving at a time of war to profit. The other aspect is the bankruptcy, I assume debtor prisons were a thing of the past, but not that much past. What was the consequence and stigma associated with bankruptcy at the time?

For those who have any doubts I am and have always been a big fan of Park, the man and his architecture, being admirer and wondering how and why are not mutually exclusive.

[Bill_McBride]

Where bankruptcy is not a big deal today, in 1912 it was not a question of debtor's prison but undoubtedly a serious stigma.  I'm sure a chance to relocate and make a fresh start in North America would have been welcome.

[Niall C]

Bill/Tom Mac

Willie P already had a long history of working in America by the time 1916 came along. Don't know if he still had his american golf business then nor whether that had already been sold/wound up. Given his business interests in America I don't think that it would be considered strange for him to go there. I doubt that he would have got black marks for that alone but he might have if it looked like he was dodging signing up for the war, but then how old was he ? How was his health ? If he wasn't fit to serve then doubt he would have got much abuse for it but thats just a guess.

Also, can't imagine the golf business, either for course design or selling golf equipment, would be particualarly good given there was a war on and no one could blame him for trying to make a living where he could.

Niall

[Tony_Muldoon]

Bill/Tom Mac

Willie P already had a long history of working in America by the time 1916 came along. Don't know if he still had his american golf business then nor whether that had already been sold/wound up. Given his business interests in America I don't think that it would be considered strange for him to go there. I doubt that he would have got black marks for that alone but he might have if it looked like he was dodging signing up for the war, but then how old was he ? How was his health ? If he wasn't fit to serve then doubt he would have got much abuse for it but thats just a guess.

Also, can't imagine the golf business, either for course design or selling golf equipment, would be particualarly good given there was a war on and no one could blame him for trying to make a living where he could.

Niall

Niall you are spot on with this. by 1916 Suttons work had fallen so far Colt offerred to take a cut in his annuity with them.

Park was born 4 February 1864, which was beyond draft doging age.

[Tom MacWood]

Niall
WP first came to America in 1895 and made an extensive tour of the Northeast. He opened his retail shop in NYC at that time, and returned briefly in 1896 (the shop closed in 1898). So there had been a two decade gap between visits.

As far as I know his health was good; he was around fifty years old. He had been designing golf courses prior to the War at breakneck speed, and may have even increased that pace when he came to America.

I was curious how the public looked toward the war effort during WWI. Did those at home rally around the effort, doing what they could to support it? If I recall correctly Colt, who was also too old serve, was in charge of food or food distribution in his part of Berkshire. My impression was it was time of sacrifice at home. Because of his financial situation or obligations was it impossible for WP to sacrifice?

There was an extensive article written in American Golfer about WP on the occasion of his trip over, and I got the impression he was very emotional about the whole thing.

[Niall C]

Tony

Mean't to ask in my last post, what was the Park book that you referred to previously ?

Niall

[Tony_Muldoon]

There’s an old one called The Parks of Musselburgh which has a decent reputation but I've never seen it.

2005. Willie Park Junior -The man who took Golf to the World by Walter Stephen.   
Covers the ground in a very odd fashion with huge gaps.  Somehow the fact that the author was a milkman seems relevant to him and when he plays Portstewart he fails to note that, at the least, 50% of the course has nothing to do with Park.  I can’t recommend.

[TEPaul]

"What would have been the consequences of going through bankruptcy in 1912? Might that have been an influence on his move to the USA?"


Is this question in some way meant to imply that Willie Park Jr. may've left GB to escape some of the consequences of bankruptcy? If so, it's an interesting question. If that was part or some of the reason he moved to America I guess a partial answer might be found in the fact of whether or not he ever returned to GB in the ensuing years of his life (1916-1925). I have no idea about that but I believe I did hear somewhere that he was back in GB when he died.

It is certainly off the specific point of Park and bankruptcy but it has certainly occured to me that perhaps an inordinate number of the greatest architects in the history of the business did experience one aspect or another of tragedy generally towards the end of their lives. I wonder if that's just a coincidence or if there are some other underlying reasons for it?

[Tom MacWood]

Park had more than his fair share of tragedy throughout his life. His first wife died during the birth of their first child. They had only been married for little over a year. His son Willie III died was he was seven, and he also had a daughter who died.

Beginning in 1919 WP began going back home in the winter.

[Rick Shefchik]

The Minneapolis Golf Club's web site says they voted sometime after August 1916 to move their course from Golden Valley to its current location in St. Louis Park (both Minneapolis inner-ring suburbs.)

"The Scottish golfer and golf course architect Willie Park Jr. was hired to lay out the new course, and an existing four-room farmhouse was converted to a clubhouse. The club's first event at its new location, a match play versus bogey, was held on May 19, 1917."

No wonder he was in demand. That's an awfully quick turnaround.

[TEPaul]

"Might that have been an influence on his move to the USA?"

Maybe his bankruptcy in GB had something to do with his move to the USA but I would say a more logical reason may've been that in the mid-teens there was just a lot more business in architecture in America than GB considering GB got into WW1 in 1914 and the USA did not get in until 1917.

For that reason alone even Tillinghast mentioned that American architects got about a three year jump on their counterparts in GB and at a time when some pretty interesting things were beginning to develop in the world of golf course architecture.

[Sean_A]

"Might that have been an influence on his move to the USA?"

Maybe his bankruptcy in GB had something to do with his move to the USA but I would say a more logical reason may've been that in the mid-teens there was just a lot more business in architecture in America than GB considering GB got into WW1 in 1914 and the USA did not get in until 1917.

For that reason alone even Tillinghast mentioned that American architects got about a three year jump on their counterparts in GB and at a time when some pretty interesting things were beginning to develop in the world of golf course architecture.

Tom P

It seems to me that the war may also have been a reason for Park's financial status finally coming to a head.  I think Park struggled for many years despite a lot of work and the war might have been the straw that broke the camel's back.

Folks have suggested that Park really blew a great opportunity in the States as he had a leg up on the British archies, but I am not so sure that Park was altogether with when he left for the USA during the war.  Perhaps he was already a broken man living on desperate hope.

Ciao

[Tom MacWood]

The Minneapolis Golf Club's web site says they voted sometime after August 1916 to move their course from Golden Valley to its current location in St. Louis Park (both Minneapolis inner-ring suburbs.)

"The Scottish golfer and golf course architect Willie Park Jr. was hired to lay out the new course, and an existing four-room farmhouse was converted to a clubhouse. The club's first event at its new location, a match play versus bogey, was held on May 19, 1917."

No wonder he was in demand. That's an awfully quick turnaround.

Rick
That was a temporary nine hole golf course, I don't believe the full eighteen was completed until 1918, and as we discussed Park never claimed Minneapolis as golf course he designed, at least he did not list on his 1922 or 1923 lists, and those lists are both quite comprehensive. I think there is more to the story than we know at present.

[Tom MacWood]

Sean
If he was broken man, he sure was a very busy and successful broken man. He designed and built hell of lot of courses in relatively short period. I think he worked himself to death or madness or both.

TEP
There was lot more business in America even before the war. Colt had discovered that in 1911, 1913 and 1914, but then the war hit and stopped coming. He had plans to return in 1915. It is my impression that Colt and others, like Barker who returned home to fight, were focused on the war effort. War is generally a period of sacrifice and national commitment.

[ChipOat]

Re: "He should have stuck to the design business."  Willie Park wasn't the last golf person to go outside his circle of competence.

A smart fellow named Jack Nicklaus put his personal signature on a bunch of loans in the 1980's for the St. Andrew's project in Hastings-On-Hudson, NY.  After that didn't work out, one started to see JWN doing commercials for the first time in years and making a few appearances in the TV booth for ABC.  And this was before the '86 Masters.

The real estate side of Pasatiempo was Marion Hollins' undoing, as well.

It happens to the best of them.

[Phil_the_Author]

Tom,

I thought Barker went back because he felt unappreciated and slighted over here.

[Sean_A]

Sean
If he was broken man, he sure was a very busy and successful broken man. He designed and built hell of lot of courses in relatively short period. I think he worked himself to death or madness or both.

TEP
There was lot more business in America even before the war. Colt had discovered that in 1911, 1913 and 1914, but then the war hit and stopped coming. He had plans to return in 1915. It is my impression that Colt and others, like Barker who returned home to fight, were focused on the war effort. War is generally a period of sacrifice and national commitment.

Tommy Mac

Successful?  Maybe critically, but I don't think Park was financially successful.  I get the impression he was chasing his tail ever since the Huntercombe debacle.  

I think you are right about a sense of duty for folks even though they were past fighting age.  Modern wars don't entail anywhere near as much sacrifice on the populace as the WWI & II.  In fact, I think the goal these days is for governments to persuade the populace to carry on as normal.  

I would have also thought that crossing the Atlantic was a very dodgy business by 1915 and to some degree a sign of desperation for the traveler.  

Ciao

[Tom MacWood]

Tom,

I thought Barker went back because he felt unappreciated and slighted over here.

[Tom MacWood]

Tommy Mac

Successful?  Maybe critically, but I don't think Park was financially successful.  I get the impression he was chasing his tail ever since the Huntercombe debacle.  

I think you are right about a sense of duty for folks even though they were past fighting age.  Modern wars don't entail anywhere near as much sacrifice on the populace as the WWI & II.  In fact, I think the goal these days is for governments to persuade the populace to carry on as normal.  

I would have also thought that crossing the Atlantic was a very dodgy business by 1915 and to some degree a sign of desperation for the traveler.  

Ciao

Sean
According to his advertisement listing his designs circa late 1922/early 1923, he designed or redesigned 62 golf courses in the US and Canada. I believe his going rate was $1500 (plus expenses) for a design or $2500 (plus expenses) for a design and supervision. That adds up to a lot of money back then. He had to be one of the busiest architects in America during those seven years, if not the busiest.

[Tom MacWood]

Here are excerpts from a couple of articles written by Henry Leach which give some insight into Park's situation. The first article is from 1916, and the second one is from 1917.

[Tom MacWood]

This is the second article.

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