BUDA 2010

[Stan Dodd]

I  vote for Dornoch but will attend anywhere next year.
Not only for the reason that I will be in Dornoch for the entire spring and summer and can help with any organizing, but Golspie can be a new venue.  David Tepper and I will be members at Golspie and can help on that end.
The Struie is worth consideration to see the old (OTM) and the new (Robin).
Proximity of pre and post venues CS, Nairn, Fortrose, Brora.
Cheers
Stan

[Mark Chaplin]

Still no rain in south east England that's 3 months since we had worthwhile rain at Deal.
I'll suggest at the next Board we change the drying room into a cocktail bar!

[Cristian]

Logistics for the Netherlands:

From Hoek van Holland (Harwich / Hull ferries) to Royal Hague (which is probably the best course of the bunch) is 17 miles, from there to Nordwijkse 13 miles, from there to Kennemer another 11 miles. For those flying in from the UK, Rotterdam airport is 16 miles from Royal Hague. International flights would go to Amsterdam Schiphol, which is 22 miles away.

Royal Zoute (Belgium) would be more of a pre/post event venue, as it's about 2.5 hours south from the Dutch hotbed of courses. But for those crossing the channel in the Dover/Calais area it would be right on the way up the coast.

Ulrich

I think these are "as a crow flies" distances, it is a little bit further by road, but you are right, still very close!

[Bill_McBride]

I would cast my vote in favor of the South Wales program.  Pennard would make a fine host course for a couple of days, and Porthcawl could perhaps host the singles and lunch on getaway day to minimize cost there.   If Sean could muster enough Pennard members, the cost might be affordable there.  The clubhouse would certainly be a suitable host venue.  Swansea looks to have plenty of lodging options.

I do love Dornoch but think it's important for Buda to break new ground.  Benelux would do that but I fear the depredations and debauchery that might result from proximity to the fleshly delights of Amsterdam.    This would not be a problem in Wales.   

[Cristian]

Living in the Benelux, I would recommend the Netherlands courses highly, but there are some things to consider:

Do not limit yourself to the coastal links courses, there are some great inland tracks as well, especially "De Pan", which as most inland courses, is within an hour's driving.

Haagsche should be included; it is the most spectacular and IMHO best course in the Blux, even if it hasn't hosted a TV tournament recently, like Kennemer.

The best clubs are rather private. Although group access is not impossible, it will be difficult to plan anything during weekends, especially in the summer months.

Unfortunately next summer is a no-go for me, as I am already off to Bandon in June. Before June and after August weekends are no-goes for me. So personally I will probably have to aim for the BUDA 2011!

[Tiger_Bernhardt]

Richard You are a good man to put in writing what a few pints might otherwise dull. I am big for May and June over September. Any of the Venues sound great with the big Mac or Dornoch being my favorites. I like Amsterdam for all the right apre golf reasons but am concerned how many Yanks will buy into quality of play.

[Rich Goodale]

Some more thoughts , based on the above contributions and further reflection:

1.  There should be one BUDA every year, playing for the Cup itself, in roughly Ryder Cup format, and in Europe.
2.  This event should focus on camaraderie and discovery, i.e. "new" courses every year (even though this was violated this year with Deal getting a second bite at the cherry, and Littlestone offerring a nearly full participant avant-event).  Architecture should be a vibrant subtext to the event rather than the raison d'etre.
3.  There are clearly multiple great venues for future BUDAs, in 2010 and beyond.

That being said:

4.   The earlier BUDAs (Dornoch, Painswick) had relatively strong participation from actual rather than virtual golf course architects.  As best I can recall, at the former were Kelly Blake Moran,  Brian Phillips and Ronan Branigan.  At the latter were Tom Doak, Robin Hiseman, Peter McEvoy, Don Placek and George Freeman.  Latter BUDAs have been almost wholly populated by players rather than designers.  How can we re-balance this mix?  Should we?
5.  Should we limit future "BUDAs" to the one event in the year, or should we have it co-existing with other mini-BUDAs, in the spirit of Chairman Mao who famously told us, "Let a thousand flowers bloom!"?

I say this in my current belief that:

6.  BUDA 2010 should be at Pennard, and should be designed and organised whenever and however as Sean and others see fit.  If it is built, I for one, will come.
7.  Other mini-BUDAs, in Benelux and Dornoch and wherever, should also go ahead.  My personal thoughts at this time are to help organise an event in Dornoch in mid-late May which will be in the spirit of BUDA but not necessarily in it's format.  I see this as something which I will be involved in for the foreseeable future--same place, same time, every year.  I will also support any other mini-BUDAs in Benelux or wherever.

Slainte

Rich

[Scott Warren]

Nick Leefe, don't forget, has said he is keen to organise a GCA gathering at Alwoodley during the summer. This could well be a year of feast!

[Rich Goodale]

You are so right, Scott.  Nick's kind offer is exactly what the sprit of BUDA means.

[Mark Pearce]

My view is that:

1) There should be one BUDA each year, playing for the cup;

2) There is room for many additional UK/European based GCA get-togethers.  To an extent this already happens with, for instance, Sean's occasional call to Beau, or Woking or elsewhere.  I for one have "gotten together" with other GCA types 4 or 5 times in the past 12 months.

3)  However, major trips, such as Dornoch or Benelux would be, are reasonably major undertakings and require some organising.  It would be a shame to dilute the strength of a future BUDA in, say, Holand, if half a dozen of the keanest had already been there.  So whilst I'm in favour of a multitude of smaller GCA events, I think a BUDA and a mini-BUDA might dilute BUDA.  There might, for instance, be people choosing to attend a mini-BUDA in Holland who would then miss BUDA itself, which they would otherwise have attended.

4)  In terms of attendance, the more the merrier.  The event could only be stronger for the presence of more architects or architecturally involved attendess.  I'm not sure why there haven't been archies at more recent BUDAs.  Any insights out there?  Having said that, I think that whilst we should encourage more BUDAites to attend and the presence of architects would strengthen it, thart isn't the be-all and end-all and BUDA is very strong as it is.

5)  I suggest we let the discussion carry on for the rest of this week then the main protagonists take it off-line so that a decision can be made and plans can start being made.

6)  Finally, if I'm paying top whack to play somewhere like Porthcawl, I'm there for 36.  The additional cost of the extra 18 holes is normally much less than the first 18 and I want to experience a day at one of the big names, rather than hit and run.  For that reason, if a "name" course is to be part of BUDA itself (and not a pre- or post- BUDA event) then it shouldn't, IMHO, be the final day.

[Rich Goodale]

Mark

Thanks for that.  I agree with all except in part #3.  There should be an "A" Buda every year, part of whose focus would be to draw people from far and near to Europe, and which would be venue at which the Cup itself would be contended.  However, I would love to see "mini-Budas" proliferate, and I do not think at all that they would dilute the major event.  In fact, most players this year had already played Deal, many of them many times, and many had also played St. Georges.  Did this dilute the event?  I think not.

One of the above comments which really got to me was Mark C. reporting that Laura and the other Deal staff would love to see us there again next year.  That is one of the things about which is Buda.  Why not Deal 2010 in September for those who want another crack at the cottage pie, even if BUDA 2010 is held in Benelux or Pennard or Dornoch?  The more I think about it, if I help organise a Dornoch 2010 Buda, I will do so expecting that there will a probably smaller 2011 version building on the best of what has gone on in the past.

As you say, let's blether for a week or so and then Convene the Plenipotentiary Site Selction Committee sometime soon.

Rich

[Steve Wilson]

You know, I participated in the first BUDA although at that time it was referred to as Barona in Dornoch, but I don't recall seeing the famous trophy after which the subsequent gatherings have been named.  Perhaps a picture of this coveted cup  could grace these electronic pages.  I recognize that consumption of Dornoch Ale in 2003 might have something to with my failure to remember the trophy, but still and all it would be nice to know what this hotly contested piece of hardware looks like.  Thanks to whoever can fill in this crack in my memory.   

[Jason Topp]

All of the venues look terrific but Pennard is most likely to get me on a plane.  It is a course I want to see but doubt I would convince non GCA friends to visit. 

[Michael Whitaker]

As I've said before, I'm in regardless of date or venue... but, I hope Buda 2010 is in September in Wales.

[mike_malone]

I'm a little concerned that Pennard could have some foursomes partners killing one another

[John Mayhugh]

I'm a little concerned that Pennard could have some foursomes partners killing one another

That does sound entertaining.  As long as it stops short of actual mayhem.

[Tiger_Bernhardt]

I will add what I said at RSG, foursomes on your home club or course you know well with a player whose game you know is great fun. Foursomes on a course you have never played with someone you have never played with is stupid. They practice together before the Ryder Cup.

[Bill_McBride]

I will add what I said at RSG, foursomes on your home club or course you know well with a player whose game you know is great fun. Foursomes on a course you have never played with someone you have never played with is stupid. They practice together before the Ryder Cup.

How much foursomes do they play at Oakbourne?  Probably as much as we play at Pensacola CC!  i.e. zero.

I enjoy playing foursomes once a year in the UK, as a second round on a 36 hole day.  I loved the permanent paths that were worn from the back of the green to the next fairway where the non-drivers walked ahead.  You saw that at RSG, Deal and at Muirfield too.  It's just another life over there.

[Michael Whitaker]

Tiger - I could not disagree with you more. Some of the best fun I have ever had on a golf course was playing foursomes with someone I had never played with on a course neither of us had ever seen. Where is your sense of adventure, man?

When I heard you were going to sit out one of the Buda Cup matches if you were "forced" to play foursomes I was shocked. Now I understand. Buda ain't the Ryder Cup... it's not about who wins, it's about the fellowship and camaraderie.

[Mark Pearce]

I will add what I said at RSG, foursomes on your home club or course you know well with a player whose game you know is great fun. Foursomes on a course you have never played with someone you have never played with is stupid. They practice together before the Ryder Cup.

Tiger,

One of the many highlights of BUDA for me was going out to play my singles on Wednesday and my opponent, the estimable Mr Mayhugh, expressing regret that we weren't playing foursomes since he was developing a taste for the game.  Foursomes is a brilliant game and the more I play it, the more I enjoy it.  It's clear it takes a while for some to "get" foursomes.  Keep coming back to BUDA and you'll get it eventually.  In the meantime, we're going to have to disagree.

[Mark Chaplin]

Whether you like foursomes or not many of the top UK courses only allow 2 ball or foursomes and getting 12 singles tee times can be impossible.

I will be delighted to organise Buda 2011 at The Oxfordshire, London Club, Chart Hills, et al, you can even wear your baseball cap in the dining room! I suspect not many people wish to travel to play American style golf in the UK.

[Giles Payne]

I think it comes with the stroke play/match play discussion. It puts an extra layer of challenge on top which is the additional mental side to foursomes - the camaraderie and not wanting to let your partner down, laughing when adversity strikes (as it inevitably does) and getting more of a chance to chat to your opposition.

With regard to venues, I am coming down on the side of Wales at the moment but it is only a gut feeling.

[Robin_Hiseman]

I agree with Rich's sentiment from a few posts back, that a Dornoch get together need not necessarily be a full blown BUDA to be worth the trip. 

I've been on at Sean a few times to get over to Pennard, but it has never quite come together.  I think a BUDA there would be a great idea and I would make the effort to go.  Painswick was a terrific experience because we stayed put for three days and I think a similar schedule at Pennard would give us the same kind of fun.

I don't think anyone needs to worry about the prices in Wales being hiked because of the Ryder Cup.  As long as we avoid the week of the cup, I doubt there will be any consequence.  I work for the company that designed the Ryder Cup course, but forgive me if I don't put it forward as a side venue.  It will either be mobbed or closed next year, as they make preparations for the cup.  I can't help with tickets either...sorry!

So, add one to the Pennard list

[Andrew Mitchell]

Apologies for my late arrival into this thread but I've been away from a computer for the last few days.  There seems to be a lot to catch up on!

I agree there should be one main Buda event each year, playing for the cup.  Now that it has been found hopefully it will make an appearance at the 2010 event!

There is already a proliferation of mini GCA events.  I've met up with fellow GCAers on a couple of occasions this year and have three more in the pipeline - Mark P at Goswick; Sean & others at both Beau Desert & Formby.  These are usually publicised with a thread on GCA and generally the more the merrier.  Hopefully these will continue and expand.

I appreciate the commitment, both financial & otherwise, of those that travel over from North America to play in BUDA.  The events would not be the same without them.  My only concern with having mini-Budas would be that those travelling from overseas are likely to only make that journey once a year and therefore participation at the main Buda event may be reduced if there have been alternative events as well.

Looking at 2010 from a purely personal perspective:
September is likely to be problematical for me. 

As Scott has mentioned Nick Leefe has offered to host GCAers at Alwoodley to mark his year as Captain there.  Nick has indicated that this may be late June, depending upon Alwoodley's calendar.

In view of the above I would prefer Buda to be held in May.

Of the venues offered:
1.  Whilst Benelux sounded enticing when we discussed it at Deal I think the apres-golf opportunities may well detract from the golf.  Additionally there does not seem to be a sponsor for this with a close connection with the clubs involved.  I think previous Budas have proved that this is essential. 
2.  It seems too soon to return to SE England for Liphook & West Sussex but I would certainly be interested in them for a Buda venue for the future.
3.  Sean's offer of Pennard and another course (Porthcawl?) is enticely and I'd be more than happy to go with that, but
4.  Dornoch is such a special place to visit and play that I could not turn down an opportunity to play there, particularly with a group with connections with the club.  May would be ideal as the gorse would likely be in bloom and the tourist season not in full swing. David Tepper and Stan Dodd have kindly offered to host at Golspie as the second course.  It would also offer the opportunity to play the much talked about Castle Stuart as a pre/post Buda round.

So my vote (if there is such a thing) is for Dornoch in May.

[Ulrich Mayring]

I am going to be very frank here. I like foursomes, but I absolutely hated walking ahead. I simply do not feel comfortable at all to stand on the side of the fairway and have someone tee off. I cannot see where the ball is going from that point of view and this feeling of uneasyness detracts substantially from the total experience. I have played foursomes a number of times before, but this walking ahead thing was the first time for me and I don't know if I want to do that again.

I do realise that it is necessary to walk ahead if one wants to play in 2.5 hours, but 3.5 hours is good enough for me and that is possible without walking ahead.

Ulrich