Fazio v Nicklaus -- who has the better top ten layouts amongst them ?

[Andy Troeger]

Andy:

Difficulty for Outlaw?

Huh ?

The place allows for a clear ground game option -- plus the need to get into the right position off the tee matters there -- ditto the value of walking the course free of the usual clutter that infects many other AZ courses -- including a few at DM.

Andy, if anything it's the player themselves that don't "get it" regarding Outlaw. They were expecting more of the same point-to-point type golf that litters the Valley of the Sun landscape. In terms of sheer demands a better case can be made that courses like Geronimo and Chicihua are far beyond that of Outlaw. Outlaw allows for the average player to improvise their shots -- not be forced to carry all shots to specific landing areas -- where one can use the ground as a mechanism to move the ball from point A to point B.

Outlaw gets hurt by the fact that so many people within AZ don't get the concept of firm and fast conditions and sadly Nicklaus gets hurt because the nature of the course flies in the face in what people generally want Jack to provide.

You need to spell out for me in much greater details the elements you see as being "overly severe." If you think Outlaw is beyond comprehension and capabilities of the higher handicap players then I believe you have it backwards. It is the lower handicap types who want the predictable 100% outcomes of total fairness and can't stand the nature of unpredictbaility that can occur there because ground game features are part and parcel of what Outlaw provides. Frankly, if anyone who has really played the bulk fo AZ courses doesn't see Outlaw as a top ten layout in the state then they are truly missing out oin many key elements that it so smartly has in spades.

Matt,
Where did I say anything about the ground game? Obviously it is very much in play at Outlaw and that's probably the biggest strength of the golf course from a strategic standpoint. Still, many of the greens are elevated above their surrounds and that creates some very difficult recoveries when balls almost always get shrugged away from holes, especially on holes like #2 and 10 (left side). Balls missing the green on #2 are very possibly going to roll 40-50 yards away. #10 is guarded by a DEEP bunker on the left with a very shallow green. Most greens allow some kind of run-up, but most also have some fronting bunkers too. In looking back at my photos of the course, at least 5-6 require an aerial approach (3, 4, 6, 16, 18). The rating of 73.5/147 tends to back up the assertion that the course is more difficult for the average player than the scratch one, although certainly that decreases from the shorter sets of tees. Just because Chiricahua might be just as difficult doesn't make Outlaw any easier. It's not necessarily a course that's going to cause someone to make a huge number, but it takes a toll nonetheless.

Most of the members at Desert Mountain apparently don't favor Outlaw. Why would you suppose that is the case?

[Matt_Ward]

Andy:

Elevated greens ? How many are we speaking about ?

You make it sound like the greens are 20 or more feet above the fairway. The falloffs and surrounding green areas at Outlaw are less severe than one would find at Pinehurst #2. The only really deficient hole is the par-4 10th -- with the very narrow diagonally placed green which doesn't provide too much of a landing area at all. Still, for most players they are approaching the target with usually a PW or LW in their hands.

Andy, you didn't mention the ground game as a prominent positive force. Too many people in AZ and no less the membership at DM is used to playing the predictable point-to-point golf that has been a feature of such a golf landscape. Outlaw cuts away from that presentation style in a big time way. You also say frontal bunkers -- on the short holes that is the case but there's always an area of opening for another style of play for those who do so.

The run-off concept is a great addition to present day golf as so many courses have formulaic bunkering that allows too many times for quick and e-z recovery or a fairly pedestrian chip'n putt for par. Outlaw puts a premium on tee ball placements and then requires a sound thinking element with one's approach play.

Andy, the slope of 147 is really way too high -- my God the course plays just over 7,000 yards from the dead back tips from my memory and there's way plenty of width for the player to get their shots in play and advance to the respective targets. I've played more than my fair share of +145 slope courses and Outlaw is not one of them.

Chirichua is not a "might be just as difficult" more demanding than Outlaw -- it's considerably more so because of the terrain, degrees of hazards and the overall length required there.

What's amazing is that Nicklaus himself doesn't get the sufficient credit for designing such a fantastic layout because it proides the complete role reversal for what most people play when in the desert. Substitute another name designer or one preferred on this site for the Bear himself and the fanfare attached to the course would likely have been much higher. Outlaw gives you a walkable layout with no housing clutter and a wonderful array of different holes that accentuate a solid mix between aerial and ground games.

[Andy Troeger]

Matt,
Responding to your posts just gives you a chance to regurgitate what you already think about the course. I've said my piece. Outlaw is a course that should be seen if given the opportunity though--it certainly is a welcome change of pace from many of the other courses in the desert.

[Matt_Ward]

The simple fact is that too many people view the Nicklaus name as being a generic one trick pony production team.

Outlaw, as just one clear example, disproves that in a considerable manner.

If Outlaw were separate and distinct from the DM family of courses and if another "preferred" name were linked to Outlaw the possibility would be there for even more awareness and likely fanfare.