[Adam Clayman]

Since many of the past posts based on rumors have focused on the wrong things. Here's an attempt to share what I consider to be confirmed rumors about the GCA. not about the club's financial status.

Initially I heard Tom Watson was brought into the area to look at designing and building a new 18 hole course. At that time (a month ago) the story was after Mr. Watson played Jack's course he contacted him and told him that if he was going to build a new course the original would need to be fixed. The story goes he told Jack it was the worst course he had ever played.

Fast forward to this week. I had confirmation on the story with the added report that after Mr. Watson's contact with JN, Team Nicklaus was on site within a week making changes. One of the more significant ones was the moving of the 18th green to the right, Removing the blind aspect that was there due to a large mound that guarded the front of the green. Supposedly other alterations were and are being made.

Does anyone have any other specific insight into these changes?

[J Sadowsky]

"The story goes he told Jack it was the worst course he had ever played."

I find that hard to believe.

[Scott Szabo]

Wow, pretty harsh words from Tom.  Is it really that bad?

[JESII]

Since many of the past posts based on rumors have focused on the wrong things. Here's an attempt to share what I consider to be confirmed rumors about the GCA. not about the club's financial status.

Initially I heard Tom Watson was brought into the area to look at designing and building a new 18 hole course. At that time (a month ago) the story was after Mr. Watson played Jack's course he contacted him and told him that if he was going to build a new course the original would need to be fixed. The story goes he told Jack it was the worst course he had ever played.

Fast forward to this week. I had confirmation on the story with the added report that after Mr. Watson's contact with JN, Team Nicklaus was on site within a week making changes. One of the more significant ones was the moving of the 18th green to the right, Removing the blind aspect that was there due to a large mound that guarded the front of the green. Supposedly other alterations were and are being made.

Does anyone have any other specific insight into these changes?

Adam,

You got confirmation that Tom Watson called Jack Nicklaus and told him one of his courses was the worst he had ever played, he made some recommendations, and within 7 days Nicklaus' team was acting on those recommendations...including (within 3 weeks time) moving an entire green when the problem was actually caused by a mound fronting the green?  Do I have this correct?

[Adam Clayman]

Sully, I prefaced my remarks as rumor because I have not had contact with anyone at the club. You did embellish my remarks somewhat, (HE CONTACTED HIM) but, essentially, the 18th green no longer exists where it was, due to the fact that many people complained about the mound that fronted the green creating some blindness.

I was told a few years ago that 18th green would not be touched. The blindness complainers must be the lowest common denominator because while the surface of the green was blind, it's general size and shape was easily figured, even for the first time player, because the area was a narrow one, and all one needed to do was trust that the green was in there between the dunes.

Also, One of the par 3's on the front (either the 8th or 5th?)  which had a center line bunker was altered. The bunker was removed and the front soften. I again, my recollection of the specifiCs are not concrete.

THATS WHY I'M ASKING.

Scott, In comparison to what could've been created, the course is/was that bad. A Doak zero.

Justin, That was one of the comments made by two or three independent sources of the rumors. I believe it.

[Matt_Ward]

Adam:

The issue for many -- myself included -- about Dismal River is less so with the 18th hole -- I don't see the issue of the blind green being a liability.

I'd be curious to know what happened with the 13th hole. Much of the focus was centered on that -- and to a lesser extent the par-3 10th with thew center-placed bunker.

Thanks ...

[JESII]

Adam,

I'm not sure what I embellished...re-read your post. You said Tom contacted Jack...and you said you had confirmation.

[Bob_Huntley]

Adam,

Years ago Dan Duva, the boxing manager and promoter, was asked about the chances of Mike Tyson changing his behavior when released from the penitentiary; his reply was quite succinct. "Why would anyone expect him to come out smarter? He went to prison for three years, not Princeton ."

Tom Watson went to Stanford and I find it hard to believe he would address his peer in the way told here.

Bob

[Adam Clayman]

Bob, et al. I assume the vernacular is a paraphrased But that is how it was related to me, not once, but twice from separate independent people. It is not that big a stretch considering Jack's own comments after playing the opening round. Supposedly he mumbled something about the need to make changes.

Matt,
  Up until these recent changes the 13th was the extensive. While 13 of the greens were originally softened the 13th hole was altered completely. The LZ on 13 was widened & softened, and, the green was moved some 60 yards closer to the tee. The greens shape is now on a flatter section looking like an elongated peanut, with a direct n/s orientation to the line of play.  No longer does it reside over on top of the dune ridge.

Sully, You said he called him. I did not. You then asked if Watson's changes were the ones immediately made. I did not. Thats all I meant by embellishment. The accounts I was relayed had one with the two meeting, with him and saying it F2F.  The other said it was correspondence.

 I encourage people to put the petty stuff and focus on the changes to the golf course. It's immaterial how he broached it to Jack, but significant that he did.

I hope no one considers that I don't want the best for DR. I'm not so petty to feel anything but happy to have more world class golf in my region. The current people who are trying to make this place a success get my utmost respect. The relationship with their neighbor is on the mend and that is another positive.

One more rumor.

They will build a real air strip. I heard the guy who built the grass one got a call from the newly hired guy and was told his air strip sucked. 

[JESII]

Sully, You said he called him. I did not. You then asked if Watson's changes were the ones immediately made. I did not. Thats all I meant by embellishment. The accounts I was relayed had one with the two meeting, with him and saying it F2F.  The other said it was correspondence.

Adam,

You're creating an irrelevant distinction between "called" and "contacted". The question is, if you were not implying the changes were Watson's recommendations why did you make the point in the same sentence that Team Nicklaus was on-site within a week of the "contact"?

I'd be happy to read a discussion of the golf course, but claims of confirmed rumors mixed with insulting speculation makes it tough to wade through...

[Michael Wharton-Palmer]

Personally the backnine at Dismal River whilst not great is the least of the problems...the front nine is simply crap...
terrible design, too mnay ridiculous blind shots, par threes that are unplayable and one hole with the most stupid lay up design you could possibly imagine.....
the back nine is not so bad...except for that par 3 tenth at 220 yards to a green split into two with a central bunker...
What the hell was Nicklaus thinking on this piece of land?

[Michael Wharton-Palmer]

That been siad...great place to stay..awesome cabins and great food.....good place to stay when you are playing Sand Hills

although staying at Sand Hills is alos good fun..with equally great food

[cary lichtenstein]

I thought DR was a pretty wierd course, although I have to give JN credit for giving the architect his head and trying to do something way different than Sand Hills. If the architect was Michael Stantz, he could have come up with a pretty amazing course on that piece of land.

[Jay Flemma]

My problem with the course was with that nutty green at ten...I don't mind the bunker in the middle of the green...but what's with the rollercoasters contours?

[J_ Crisham]

When I was playing Sand Hills last week we heard the same story regarding Watson/ Nicklaus from 2 seperate groups of people. It was explained to us that the moving of alot of ground during construction changed the natural flow of water on the course at DR. This evidentally caused tremendous course damage during the record rains of July this year,some 25 inches. Never went over to see DR as everything we heard from pretty traveled golfers was negative.         Jack

[Mike_Trenham]

I was there in late July, this was the general story a few different people told us.

My issue with the course is it is very narrow if the wind is up as it was the day I played.  They had just cut back the rough but it was not enough for me as I was really struggling that day.  

It was very difficult if you ask me, by the time I reached the greens I was done so the greens did not bother me as much as the narrow playing corridors.  I got the feeling the course could be improved if it is as easy to create fairways there as C&C let on it was at Sandhills, its not like they are dealing with wetlands.

In terms of work the bunker fronting first par three on the front nine had collapsed maybe due to the rains early this season.

The accomadations, service and food were first rate.
 

[Jim Colton]

It's unfortunate that they couldn't get it right the first time.  It looks like fantastic land to work with, like much of what you see in the sand hills region.  Where did they go wrong?  Is it fixable?

[Sean Leary]

Just makes me wonder if it would have been a lot better had Jack gone over to look at Sand Hills...

[Garland Bayley]

Just makes me wonder if it would have been a lot better had Jack gone over to look at Sand Hills...

LOL
 

[David_Elvins]

Sorry to sidetrack a little but how good is the land at Dismal River (compared to sand hills, ballyneal)?

[DMoriarty]

Maybe this will put to rest this nonsense about how any designer could create a great course if given a great site like Sand Hills or Ballyneal.

[Mike Sweeney]

Maybe this will put to rest this nonsense about how any designer could create a great course if given a great site like Sand Hills or Ballyneal.

David,

Who said that?

[DMoriarty]

It has been said and intimated by many around here over the years and very recently.   But I don't feel like another fight so let's just pretend I said it, and now I realize I was wrong.   What a dummy am I.

[David Stamm]

It has been said and intimated by many around here over the years and very recently.   But I don't feel like another fight so let's just pretend I said it, and now I realize I was wrong.   What a dummy am I.

Fine. I admit it. I said it. 

[Jay Flemma]

Sorry to sidetrack a little but how good is the land at Dismal River (compared to sand hills, ballyneal)?

The land is outstanding...every bit as good as sand hills and ballyneal.  awesome.

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