[Matt_Ward]

Michael W. P.:

I read your comments on the front nine at DR being "crap" -- can you lay out some specifics to that -- I'd be happy to respond when you provide your thoughts.


Adam:

Did the changes carried out to #13 make the hole better -- more fairer -- the original issue was the slant of the fairway from the tee shot perspective. The green was less of the issue from what I can remember.

[Adam Clayman]

Matt, The changes at 13 made the hole blah. Unfitting but unique to the course.

Those who have said the land is as good as SH might not be that correct.

On the surface they appear the same. But, as Dick Daley once illustrated, the key to a majority of the  Sand Hills corridors is their direction and orientation.

I had not heard about the rain's damage. Doesn't make much sense anywhere outside of some bunker work. Ma

Jack Crisham,
 Moved a lot of dirt in construction? That was not what the story was at the time. They prided themselves on how little they moved. They needed to move more. But they also need to learn how to make it look like they moved little.

In the early days of GCA there was an opinion that any archie could create great golf. David's point is valid and worthy of an interesting discussion. Maybe not for Sully to wade through but interesting to some.

 

[John_Conley]

The story goes he told Jack it was the worst course he had ever played.

And Jack said, "how could you hit it long on 18!?  The only place you could get in trouble was behind the green!"

[Jim Nugent]

Back in the 1980s, the story I heard around Los Angeles was that Watson said the Ike course at Industry Hills was the worst he had played.

Wonder how this information about Watson and Nicklaus became public knowledge?  If it was a private conversation, at least one of them had to tell others.  Who told others, who are telling others....

The old adage about how to keep a secret is often true. 

[RJ_Daley]

Wow, I sure remember how JL (Jack's lead archie associate) sure got steamed at some of us, during the construction and posting of photos of the work progress, and folks were observing from the photos that something didn't quite look right.   

[Sean_A]

It has been said and intimated by many around here over the years and very recently.   But I don't feel like another fight so let's just pretend I said it, and now I realize I was wrong.   What a dummy am I.

Fine. I admit it. I said it. 

I am Spartacus!

This thread strikes me as one which has zero basis in fact.  Why not just discuss the course?

Ciao

[Mike Nuzzo]

Maybe this will put to rest this nonsense about how any designer could create a great course if given a great site like Sand Hills or Ballyneal.

David,

Who said that?

Mike
I thought Jack Nicklaus and Gary Player said it....

[Tony Petersen]

The story goes he told Jack it was the worst course he had ever played.

And Jack said, "how could you hit it long on 18!?  The only place you could get in trouble was behind the green!"

 

[Kyle Henderson]

Dismal River isn't in the same class as Ballyneal or Sand Hills, but few courses are.

In calm conditions, I found the course very playable with a number of good holes. Granted, there are some unnecessarily blind shots, some of the greens were overdone and too much of the native vegetation disturbed during construction. Making matters worse, the course's maintenance was botched during the first couple of yea.

Still ,warts included, I would strongly disagree with a Doak rating below 5.

[Adam Clayman]

RJ,
I recall those first pix and those of us who speculated on the stability. However, I also recall that the pictures were somewhat mis-leading because what looked like a huge sand bunker was not. This thread is the first place I heard of issues related to the summers rains.

This thread strikes me as one which has zero basis in fact.  Why not just discuss the course?

That's not true Sean.

The facts are; Major changes have been made to at least two holes this summer.

Did you not read where I asked repeatedly about the GCA?

Others in this forum have confirmed the rumblings. If this forum was worth it's salt, and hadn't turned into a bitchfest, these changes would've been chronicled before anything happened.

[JESII]

Adam,

90% of your opening post was rumor and speculation with insulting implied cause and effect (eg: Watson contacted Nicklaus and within a week Team Nicklaus was on site...)...

If your #1 priority with this thread was to discuss the GCA of Dismal River you would have framed the opening post substantially different...I've seen your thoughtful posts/questions and they're really good. This one was not.

[Mike_Young]

Does anyone have any other specific insight into these changes?

Adam,
With respect I would have to call BS on whomever confirmed such.....first..what does TW have to gain by saying anything.....I have never heard of an architect determining if he would accept a commission for a sister course on whether the architect of the last course brought it up to his liking ......knowing some of the egos in this business it would be an everyday occurrence if this was happening......
Cheers,
Mke

[Mike Hendren]

A Doak 0.  Really?
Crap.  Really?

IF the story's true, Jack should return the favor by visiting Watson's Manor Golf & Country Club in greater Atlanta.  It's neither crap nor a zero, just not very good.

Mike

[J_ Crisham]

Matt, The changes at 13 made the hole blah. Unfitting but unique to the course.

Those who have said the land is as good as SH might not be that correct.

On the surface they appear the same. But, as Dick Daley once illustrated, the key to a majority of the  Sand Hills corridors is their direction and orientation.

I had not heard about the rain's damage. Doesn't make much sense anywhere outside of some bunker work. Ma

Jack Crisham,
 Moved a lot of dirt in construction? That was not what the story was at the time. They prided themselves on how little they moved. They needed to move more. But they also need to learn how to make it look like they moved little.

In the early days of GCA there was an opinion that any archie could create great golf. David's point is valid and worthy of an interesting discussion. Maybe not for Sully to wade through but interesting to some.

 

Adam, As it was explained to us by a member of your club,BN and our host at SH, the moving of the original flow of the ground  changed the drainage pattern of the water and as such it caused significant damage at DR. As I stated , we didn't waste any of our time seeing it as everything we heard was negative. As an aside BN looked very nice-running firm and fast.  Wish you well,  Jack

[Adam Clayman]

Jack, Thanks for that. It seemed odd since I didn't think much dirt was moved.

I was away for the weekend and heard further confirmation of the same story about Watson. This time the source was conveyed as coming from a member of DR.

It shouldn't surprise me, since this is not the first time rumors have come out of DR. (If anyone wants to hear the story fro the opening season, IM me)

Sully,

I'm trying to wrap my head around you harping that this is insulting. Insulting to whom? If you mean to Jack, I think he can handle the critique. If you mean to the club, I don't see it. I see them taking the steps to improve their club and that is not insulting. Besides, what is more insulting, this thread, or, building a course in a perfect region for golf, that insults the golfer? I assume you have not stepped foot on this property? Played the course? I also assume you are defending some back channel behind the scenes friends of this project. Is that accurate?

[Sean_A]

Jack, Thanks for that. It seemed odd since I didn't think much dirt was moved.

I was away for the weekend and heard further confirmation of the same story about Watson. This time the source was conveyed as coming from a member of DR.

It shouldn't surprise me, since this is not the first time rumors have coe out of DR. (If anyone wants to hear the story fro the opening season, IM me)

Sully,

I'm trying to wrap my head around you harping that this is insulting. Insulting to whom? If you mean to Jack, I think he can handle the critique. If you mean to the club, I don't see it. I see them taking the steps to improve their club and that is not insulting. Besides, what is more insulting, this thread, or, building a course in a perfect region for golf, that insults the golfer? I assume you have not stepped foot on this property? Played the course? I also assume you are defending some back channel behind the scenes friends of this project. Is that accurate?

Adam

Read your initial post and honestly ask yourself if it couldn't be interpreted the way I did.  

Ciao

[Steve_ Shaffer]

So where's the comment from the DR developer who previously posted here many times?

[JESII]

Insulting to us Adam.

Your opening post rumor and speculation (you can confirm it all you want) about Watson and Nicklaus with the two word caveat in the title that this is an architecture focussed discussion...that's insulting to me.


The below line is probably the most insulting of all...

If this forum was worth it's salt, and hadn't turned into a bitchfest, these changes would've been chronicled before anything happened.

As to your questions about my motives for comenting on this thread...not insulting, merely revealing. Do you remember the childhood line..."whoever smelt it, delt it!"?

[Adam Clayman]

Thats priceless.

Frank has clearly left the building.

[JESII]

Since many of the past posts based on rumors have focused on the wrong things. Here's an attempt to share what I consider to be confirmed rumors about the GCA. not about the club's financial status.

Initially I heard Tom Watson was brought into the area to look at designing and building a new 18 hole course. At that time (a month ago) the story was after Mr. Watson played Jack's course he contacted him and told him that if he was going to build a new course the original would need to be fixed. The story goes he told Jack it was the worst course he had ever played.

Fast forward to this week. I had confirmation on the story with the added report that after Mr. Watson's contact with JN, Team Nicklaus was on site within a week making changes. One of the more significant ones was the moving of the 18th green to the right, Removing the blind aspect that was there due to a large mound that guarded the front of the green. Supposedly other alterations were and are being made.

Does anyone have any other specific insight into these changes?

Adam,

I'd be curious if you have actually read the above quoted post yet.

[Adam Clayman]

Jim,
 I felt the background info was integral to the story. Since you have not bothered to answer my questions on whether you have ever been there, or, if you know the history of the entire project, I find your comments to be somewhat vindictive. Similar to the vindictive rumors that were spread after my initial visit to the club. Since you are an east coast guy, perhaps I jump to a conclusion that isn't accurate, but, from where I sit, the connection is more than coincidence.

BTW, Would the words "The story is true" change how you feel?
 

[Mike Hendren]

If the story is true, it is a poor reflection on Watson, not Nicklaus.  Every architect underachieves from time to time.  BFD.

[Adam Clayman]

Had the opportunity to speak with someone in the know.

First, one major error in the previous assumptions. Watson did not do the recent work at DR. Jack did.

Watson had dinner with Jack, at last years Memorial, where he chronicled, in detail, what he thought was wrong with the golf course. Jack re-visited the property in July and devoted two days. The plan was for the first day to tour the whole course. Then play it on the second. Well, it didn't work out that way. After the first day Jack had only made it to the 7th hole.
One germane visual is of Jack, turning to Chris Cochran and saying something to the affect of, "What did we deliver to these people?"

DR is under new ownership but will still be managed by Troon Golf. They have a new Superintendent and have high hopes for the upcoming season.

After this thread first appeared I received an IM from one of the old timers around here. He made the interesting comment that DR is even more intriguing because of the all the issues they've had to deal with in  such a short period of time. I wish them luck and hope their members will enjoy the new and improved version of Dismal River.

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