Most Overrated and Underrated courses

[Jim Tang]

Mike -

Didn't know that about "The Dell" hole.  I know there are some major changes being made out there.

Are you at Erin Hills?  Do you know Jim Colton?  He was talking about making a return trip to EH this fall and hooking up with a Mike (I think) he knows up that way.  He was trying to get me to return.  Perhaps not.

It is nice to trade posts on a topic viewed from opposite sides, without anyone going crazy and acting as if the end of the world is just around the corner.

[JR Potts]

Most Overrated Courses:

1. Rich Harvest Farms
2. Pebble Beach
3. Medinah #3
4. Butler National
5. European Club
6. Turnberry
7. Whistling Straights (Straights)
8. Bandon Trails

Most Underrated Courses:

1. Kingsley Club
2. Lawsonia Links
3. Black Sheep
4. Lost Dunes
5. [b[Shoreacres[/b]
6. Prestwick
7. Yale
8. The Dunes Club
9. Skokie
10. Fenway
11. Pine Needles

My favorite thing to do when I see Illinois residents posts lists like this is to go to the peer review....and 99/100 times, my suspicion is validated.  

Not all courses have to be playable for all skill levels.

There are big golf courses that require big games and little golf courses that require little games.  I happen to prefer the former over the latter as it better suits my eye and my game....and in fact, I end up enjoying the course and the round that much more.  What is the fly in the ointment in many "reviews" on this site is that everyone in their subjective rankings expects a course to be elastic to their shortcomings as golfers.  

Well, in my opinion, that's just not fair and not true.  Golf courses are built to be a lot of different things to a lot of different people....just because one totally lacks the skill to play many of the courses listed on the top, doesn't make the design any less effective for the purpose of the course.  Further, it certainly does not make the course overrated.  One must always think and remember, as Terry Lavin so eloquently referenced above, what's the intent of the design?   Many of these criticisms are akin to me saying that I think Great Expectations is a shitty novel because it didn't make me laugh.  I can tell you, Whistling Straits, Butler and Medinah certainly weren't designed to provide a leisurely round of golf for the 20+ handicapper.  In fact, I would suggest that those who can't break 100 regularly, shouldn't even be on those golf courses unless spectating.

[Jud_T]

Ryan,

Thanks for your help.  I never knew that some courses are harder and more demanding than others!!  Whistling straights is in fact very playable depending on what tees you play from, wind conditions etc...Besides the fact that the course is completely artificial, you can't seriously tell us that #5 and #18 are great designs.  As for Butler and Medinah, I'd say that unless you are breaking 80 on a regular basis and fairly long and straight off the tee, you have no business out their either.  Why don't we just design a course thats 9,000 yards long from the whites with a 180 slope that only Tiger can enjoy? I'm sure that'd really get your macho up....

[Jud_T]

ok, Ryan, maybe you are breaking 80 on a regular basis! my apologies, but a couple of points...1) Yale is on my underrated list, not exactly a pushover.  2) While my game is certainly no match for either Butler or Medinah, I think there are a few design concepts that are lacking in both. Namely, while there's nothing inherently wrong with a championship layout for the best players,  there should be some ebb and flow to the course, not simply one punishingly long demanding hole after another.  How about a couple of short par 4's or reachable par 5's? This not only gives the average player a fighting chance, but tempts the really good player to make a too-aggressive play.  A course should force you to produce with every club in your bag, not just driver and long iron on every hole.  Secondly, these courses, Medinah in particular, suffer from what many illinois courses do, namely one long narrow tree lined fairway after another.  Yes it's important to be able to produce a long straight drive, but if that's the only option on every hole, it becomes a bit tedious and unimaginative after a while.  3) I shouldn't have expected anything less from an illinois alum....

[Mike Wagner]

Jim,

I've been trying to get Colton up here....what are you guys doing Wednesday?  Let's go!

[Patrick_Mucci]

Jud,

If you think Pebble Beach is overrated due to the views, you weren't paying much attention to the golf course.

It's a great, great, great GOLF course, despite what Tom Huckaby thinks of the views.

What would help in analyzing the evaluations presented by each poster is the poster's handicap, tees played, condition of the course, number of times played and score.

Pinehurst # 2 overrated ?  ?  ?

[David Stamm]

Is Pebble expensive to play? Absolutely. Does it have a few "pedestrian" holes? Perhaps. Elvins nailed it. #1? No. Top 10? Perhaps. Pebble is a great course.

[Steve Kline]

Overrated:
- Mer....no I am not
- Maidstone (way too many holes are very banal, almost all the way to #8 is pretty bland)
- Sawgrass (I simply dislike sharp edges, Sawgrass is filled with them)
- Baltusrol (All par 3s are long and the same club, repetitive long par 4s, very much a trudge)
- Bandon Dunes (I obviously missed something, several world class holes, however several clunkers)
- Erin Hills (Minimalism taken way too serious, someone crank up the bulldozer and flatten some of those driving zones out)
- Pinehurst #2 (flat, uninspiring with greens that borderline goofy at today's green speeds)

Underrated:
- Pine Needles (beautiful property, fantastic routing, great par 3s and short par 4s, how this can't be better than #2 is beyond me)
- Cal Club (probably won't be underrated much longer, maybe the best in SF now, the new holes are great!)
- Ballyneal (the most fun golf course I have every played, period)
- Pasatiempo (the best golf deal on the planet, a Doak restored Mackenzie for less than $200 in beautiful NorCal, best bunkering in golf)
- Piping Rock (Wow, big, bold CB Macdonald, fantastic Redan, fantastic greens, hard but so much fun)
- Western Gailes (What a sleeper, so fun, not sure what everyone misses)
- Prestwick (So so fun)
- Blue Mound (Fantastic Seth Raynor sleeper with an awesome Punchbowl and subtle, but amazingly set of greens)
- Pine Barrens (Great routing, great bunkers, no forced eye candy, one of the best short par 4s in golf)

Way Underrated:
- Tobacco Road (The best risk/reward course on the planet, such a visually stimulating and intimidating course...yet playable on an cool piece of land)
- Bandon Trails (Great routing, great use of natural land features, awesome centerline bunkers, two drivable par 4s, best par 3 on property, subtle and elegant)

I agree that #2 is overrated given its current maintenance meld. But when the fairway widths are right and it is playing firm and fast it is a tremendous strategic golf course.

I also agree that Pine Needles is underrated. I absolutely love that golf course. Although I think 15 and 17 are rather weak holes.

I also agree that Bandon Trails is way underrated. I thought it was vastly better than Bandon Dunes. Trails made great use of the property with lots of interesting features, including several centerline bunkers and/or ridges. And, I loved playing the 14th hole. What did you think was the best par 3 on the property? I think the par 3s are superb. In order of the holes I hit 3 iron, PW, 5 wood and 7 iron and all of them played very different. I thought Trails had far better green complexes (more sophisticated) than Bandon Dunes.

To add to others' comments - Torrey Pines is way overrated.

[Jim Tang]

Mike -

Yeah, Colton has been talking about a return engagement since the late summer.  Unfortunately, I cannot make Wednesday.  I am a teacher, so middle of the week ventures are tough to come by.  Plus, I coach hoops, and Wednesday is practice #1 after tryouts on Monday and Tuesday.

After his recent trip to Ballyneal, I think JC is done w/ golf for the year.

Maybe we can do it next summer.  It would be a good day trip, easy drive from Chicago.

[Mark_Fine]

I've just read through this thread and it seems everyone has finally reached agreement!  My suggestion is that the next person who complains about the Top 100 rankings should be directed to this thread 

[ChipOat]

Jud: I confess to being a part of the "TOC overrated" crowd.  Too many ordinary holes (even on a windy day) IMHO.

All:  Is Pebble Beach the only Top 10 that's mentioned as overrated on this thread?  Merion, PV, Shinnecock, CPC, Oakmont are all holding up beyond reproach (which is fine w/me).  Does that mean that, of the Top 10, only Pebble has more than one hole that's considered to be underwhelming/ordinary?

[Jud_T]

"The best courses in the world have great short par 4's"-Tom Doak....If you don't take this hacker's word for it maybe you'll listen to the master.....

[Steve Kline]

The one weekend I got to play Pine Valley it exceeded my expectations - which were pretty high. The one weekend I got to play Pebble it was pretty much what I thought.

Pat Mucci - I've played #2 over 200 times during the the last 20 years. I've played from the white, blue, and U.S. Open tees (about 5 times). My handicap has been as low as +4 in the last two years. The reduction in fairways widths has seriously hurt the strategic options on the course. Also, rarely is the course maintained in such a manner where I find putting up the slopes of the green a reasonable option. Rarely is the course maintained in such a manner that I can bounce the ball onto the greens. In my opinion part of being a great course is having the proper maintenance meld. And, unfortunately, #2 hasn't had it for quite a while. Hence, in my opinion it is overrated. Currently I would rather play Pine Needles.

[Jud_T]

steve- good color on pinehurst are.  not only is pine needles a great course, it's a hell of a lot less expensive than #2 if you're not a town member....wonder what you think about the Forest Creek courses and the state of the Dormie Club?

[Patrick_Mucci]

"The best courses in the world have great short par 4's"-Tom Doak....If you don't take this hacker's word for it maybe you'll listen to the master.....

Where are the great short par 4's at Shinnecock, Winged Foot, Fenway, and ANGC ?

You don't consider the 4th at Pebble a great, short, par 4 ?

# 3 at Pinehurst # 2 ?

[Patrick_Mucci]

The one weekend I got to play Pine Valley it exceeded my expectations - which were pretty high.

If it wasn't in good condition, which happens during the summer from time to time, would you declare that it's overrated ?


The one weekend I got to play Pebble it was pretty much what I thought.

So, you'd state that you were predisposed and merely reinforced your predisposition ?

Pat Mucci - I've played #2 over 200 times during the the last 20 years. I've played from the white, blue, and U.S. Open tees (about 5 times). My handicap has been as low as +4 in the last two years. The reduction in fairways widths has seriously hurt the strategic options on the course. Also, rarely is the course maintained in such a manner where I find putting up the slopes of the green a reasonable option. Rarely is the course maintained in such a manner that I can bounce the ball onto the greens. In my opinion part of being a great course is having the proper maintenance meld. And, unfortunately, #2 hasn't had it for quite a while. Hence, in my opinion it is overrated. Currently I would rather play Pine Needles.

Those are all maintainance issues, not architectural issues.

I've played PV when the greens stimped at about 6.  Should PV be deemed overrated ?

[Jud_T]

Patrick,

re-#2, if you read the whole thread you'll see that I defend it several times.  Although conditioning has to be taken into consideration at some level if it's consistently poor, as Yale was for many years.  As for Pebble, the 4th is a fine hole and the criticism there isn't that it doesn't have a good short par four but rather that it has a number of pedestrian holes, namely 1,2,11 &12, and some good but not great holes overshadowed by the view, namely #18.  Winged Foot has wonderful greens complexes, and a fine short par 4 at #6.  Fenway has a great short par four at #15.

[JESII]

All:  Is Pebble Beach the only Top 10 that's mentioned as overrated on this thread?  Merion, PV, Shinnecock, CPC, Oakmont are all holding up beyond reproach (which is fine w/me).  Does that mean that, of the Top 10, only Pebble has more than one hole that's considered to be underwhelming/ordinary?

Chip,

I would say Pebble alone has more "underwhelming/ordinary" holes than Merion, PV and Shinnecock combined...for what it's worth.

[Emil Weber]

Underrated:

Torrey South-especially on this site
Olympic Club-Lake
Riviera
Stone Eagle

Overrated:

Pinehurst #2
Barona Creek

I have to disagree on Torrey Pines here - it's tough and thats about all it is.

My local 9-hole muni asks more questions, it's really the least strategic course I've played. There is absolute no variety in the shots you have tio excecute. Hit the fairway, hit the green, and the greens are all multiply tiered. Is that variety?

The course might be suited for a US Open, but it is not a fun course for the average golfer to enjoy. one good thing might be the routing which brings the golfer close to the ocean at 3&4, 12&13 and 16&17.

[Kevin Pallier]

I know many of my fellow Australian GCAers will dissagree with me but I think RMW - especially in the last few years - has been overrated.

Put simply - it's conditioning has not been to the level of what one would expect for the supposed #1 course in the country.

I'm a big fan sure but when I hear regular comments such as "it's so far ahead of the rest" and it's "daylight second" - it's not. It will be interesting to see how Lost Farm is recieved when it opens  

[Mark_F]

I know many of my fellow Australian GCAers will dissagree with me but I think RMW - especially in the last few years - has been overrated.

Put simply - it's conditioning has not been to the level of what one would expect for the supposed #1 course in the country.

I'm a big fan sure but when I hear regular comments such as "it's so far ahead of the rest" and it's "daylight second" - it's not. It will be interesting to see how Lost Farm is recieved when it opens  

How fitting that this post was Number 666 for you...

[Steve Kline]

steve- good color on pinehurst are.  not only is pine needles a great course, it's a hell of a lot less expensive than #2 if you're not a town member....wonder what you think about the Forest Creek courses and the state of the Dormie Club?

I've never played Forest Creek but hope too soon. A member has offered to take me out the next time I'm down there. I wish the Dormie club were public so I could play it. From the pictures it could be the best course in Pinehurst when it opens.

[Steve Kline]

"The best courses in the world have great short par 4's"-Tom Doak....If you don't take this hacker's word for it maybe you'll listen to the master.....

Where are the great short par 4's at Shinnecock, Winged Foot, Fenway, and ANGC ?

You don't consider the 4th at Pebble a great, short, par 4 ?

# 3 at Pinehurst # 2 ?

#3 at #2 isn't so short anymore from the U.S. Open tees. It has to be close to 360-380 yards now. I really can't imagine anyone trying to drive that green and faring very well.

[Steve Kline]

The one weekend I got to play Pine Valley it exceeded my expectations - which were pretty high.

If it wasn't in good condition, which happens during the summer from time to time, would you declare that it's overrated ?


Not based on one weekend. I played it in the middle of the summer and the conditioning was excellent. The use of the land was clearly exceptional. The most amazing thing to me was how so many of the holes just appeared to be there forever.


The one weekend I got to play Pebble it was pretty much what I thought.

So, you'd state that you were predisposed and merely reinforced your predisposition ?

I had a predisposition at PV too. I knew PV had been rated #1 for a long and I was expecting a lot. One was way better than I thought and the other was what I thought. I really enjoyed playing PB (especially since I wasn't paying). The stretch of holes along the ocean are truly fantastic. I think those holes take away from the other holes which aren't as bad as many say. I just wasn't nearly as impressed. I think I need to play PB more to make an accurate judgement because in just two times around the non-ocean holes have been lost in my memory. Again that's not because of the non-ocean holes themselves but the ocean holes. Plus the whole trip was oveshafowed by shooting 2 under from the tips at Spyglass after my caddy informed our group that the other caddy bet me lunch that I wouldn't break 80 from back there.


Pat Mucci - I've played #2 over 200 times during the the last 20 years. I've played from the white, blue, and U.S. Open tees (about 5 times). My handicap has been as low as +4 in the last two years. The reduction in fairways widths has seriously hurt the strategic options on the course. Also, rarely is the course maintained in such a manner where I find putting up the slopes of the green a reasonable option. Rarely is the course maintained in such a manner that I can bounce the ball onto the greens. In my opinion part of being a great course is having the proper maintenance meld. And, unfortunately, #2 hasn't had it for quite a while. Hence, in my opinion it is overrated. Currently I would rather play Pine Needles.

Those are all maintainance issues, not architectural issues.

I've played PV when the greens stimped at about 6.  Should PV be deemed overrated ?

I've read many times on this site where many of the things we consider architecture are really maintenance. The fact is #2 fairway's have been almost cut in half from what they once were. This takes away the strategic options of the course. So, does the mowing height around the greens. It's similar to Bethpage Black imo. I've never played there but what you read is that it had the structure of a great course but its glory wasn't fully revealed until the redo. #2's glory is being hidden because of a poor MM. My comments on #2 are not related to the speed of the greens or how well they putt or the quality of the sand in the bunkers. That's pure maintenance stuff imo. I'm talking about the loss of lines of play and the inability to play shots the course was designed for because of something that architect didn't do. For example on the second hole the fairway used to run up to the left fairway bunkers. Playing near those bunkers as possible was the only way to attack pins on the right half of the green because of a large mound on the right front of the green. Now the fairway stops 5 to 10 yards right of those "rough" bunkers. You can no longer get the proper angle and the bunkers look stupid now because they don't seem to have any reason for being. The fairway on the 18th used to go behind the large, deep fairway bunker providing an excellent angle into the left side pins. No if you a drive over that bunker you are at least 10 yards in the rough. This is more than a maintenance issue because it severely impacts Ross' strategic intent.

I admit I can't speak like this about many great courses because I have only played them one or two times. But, like I said I've played Pinehurst a lot of the course of time. Half of the rounds I played on it were before any Tour Championships or U.S. Opens were held. Those events are ruining the golf course for us non-Tour players.

[Martin Toal]

Underrated:

Torrey South-especially on this site
Olympic Club-Lake
Riviera
Stone Eagle

Overrated:

Pinehurst #2
Barona Creek

I have to disagree on Torrey Pines here - it's tough and thats about all it is.

My local 9-hole muni asks more questions, it's really the least strategic course I've played. There is absolute no variety in the shots you have tio excecute. Hit the fairway, hit the green, and the greens are all multiply tiered. Is that variety?

The course might be suited for a US Open, but it is not a fun course for the average golfer to enjoy. one good thing might be the routing which brings the golfer close to the ocean at 3&4, 12&13 and 16&17.

I was astonishingly underwhelmed by Torrey Pines (either course). I wouldn't pay money (even SD County rate) to play again.

Nice scenery, but apart from a few holes, boring boring boring.

And the pace of play was horrific, too.