Most Overrated and Underrated courses

[tlavin]

I was going through my personal course rankings and looking at discrepencies between my rankings and golfweek, golf magazine and golf digest. Of courses that I've played here are what I feel are the most overrated and underrated courses in the current magazine rankings.  Feel free to comment or to post your own personal discrepencies, thoughts.  Only prerequisite is that you've played the courses in question:

Most Overrated Courses:

1. Rich Harvest Farms
2. Pebble Beach
3. Medinah #3
4. Butler National
5. European Club
6. Turnberry
7. Whistling Straights (Straights)
8. Bandon Trails

Most Underrated Courses:

1. Kingsley Club
2. Lawsonia Links
3. Black Sheep
4. Lost Dunes
5. Shoreacres
6. Prestwick
7. Yale
8. The Dunes Club
9. Skokie
10. Fenway
11. Pine Needles

I've seen people put Rich Harvest Farms, Medinah #3 and Butler National on the same list, but this is even more ridiculous than the people who think Rich Harvest belongs in the Top 500.

Medinah may not be everybody's cup of tea.  The par 3's are repetitive.  The course is relentlessly tough.  It has 1000 too many trees, but it is a very very good golf course.  Butler National is a terrific course.  It's not minimalist architecture, that's for sure.  In some ways I suppose it's maximalist.  It is built to test the very best players in the game.  Some (including me) would put it in the top 50 in the country and I suppose others might not.  If you don't think it's top 50 material, that's one thing.  If you think it sucks and is comparable to Rich Harvest (which is close to terrible in its current state), then I think your judgment is not just overrated, it's well beyond suspect.

[tlavin]

Most overrated:  threads like this.  Lists of courses with no accountability to give reasons for why a course either exceeded or failed to live up to your expectations.

Sorry for raining on the parade.

Ditto

[Jud_T]

mike, see above

[Scott Szabo]

Overrated:

Torrey (South)
Harding Park
Castle Pines


Underrated:

Pasa (most underrated course I've ever played...I miss it like I miss my mom's Fried Chicken)
Ballyneal (seriously)
Kingsley
Bandon Trails

Ben,

What are your issues with Castle Pines being overrated?

[Jud_T]

Terry,

I agree that Rich Harvest is MUCH worse than either Medinah or Butler.  Hence the number one slot on my list.  Medinah and Butler are great tests for the best players in the world, no doubt.  In my humble opinion, however, designing a very difficult albeit fair test for big hitting low single digit players is much less challenging than building a course that is fun and challenging for all.  Medinah on both occasions I played it was not only diffficult, but crowded and in poor condition for a private course.   Butler, while in great condition also strikes me as an odd club.  While no reflection on the course, what is the point of having a men's club that takes itself so seriously? Honestly, I much prefer the atmosphere at Bob'o'link or Black Sheep.  I guess you could argue that a really tough track for a select subset of players is just as justifiable as a really quirky strategic course that focuses on the ground game and great green complexes is also for another select subset of players (GCA'ers).  The difference is that most golfers can never enjoy the former, while most could learn to enjoy the latter....

[Rory Connaughton]

Carl:

  I agree that Portmarnock is not no. 1 in Ireland but I have seen it bashed on this site on a number of occasions and am always surprised.

[tlavin]

Terry,

I agree that Rich Harvest is MUCH worse than either Medinah or Butler.  Hence the number one slot on my list.  Medinah and Butler are great tests for the best players in the world, no doubt.  In my humble opinion, however, designing a very difficult albeit fair test for big hitting low single digit players is much less challenging than building a course that is fun and challenging for all.  Medinah on both occasions I played it was not only diffficult, but crowded and in poor condition for a private course.   Butler, while in great condition also strikes me as an odd club.  While no reflection on the course, what is the point of having a men's club that takes itself so seriously? Honestly, I much prefer the atmosphere at Bob'o'link or Black Sheep.  I guess you could argue that a really tough track for a select subset of players is just as justifiable as a really quirky strategic course that focuses on the ground game and great green complexes is also for another select subset of players (GCA'ers).  The difference is that most golfers can never enjoy the former, while most could learn to enjoy the latter....

I'm not interested in changing anybody's particular "take" on a golf course; that's a decidedly personal call, but I fail to understand your criticism of Butler.  Who gives a shit if the atmosphere is better at Black Sheep or Bob O'Link?  I thought we were trying to discuss the relatively ineffable concept of whether a given golf course is overrated by the people who rate them.  Heck, I like the atmosphere at Bob O'Link better than Butler, but Bob O'Link is not in the same league when discussing the architectural merits/demerits of the golf course.

A steady diet of Butler would not be great for me, because the angle of attack into every, single green (with the possible exception of #3 and #17 is just too demanding for my golf game.  But the course was designed to attract great players from all across the country and the pro tour.  The men-only stuff got in the way for the tour, but the golf course is still there waiting to be challenged by the players whose games fit the course.

As for Rich Harvest, the owner apparently wanted to design a golf course that would be balls-to-the-walls hard without much concern about the design integrity of any individual hole and surely without any thought as to the routing.  He only succeeded in making a goofy golf course with ridiculous features like trees in the middle of the fairway on long par 4 holes, plastic swans in ponds, inconsistent bunker styles and a routing that requires a golf cart.

[Martin Toal]

I haven't played any of the private greats, so my list is limited:

Overrated:
Torrey Pines
Doral Blue

Underrated:
Maderas, San Diego
Green Monkey, Barbados

Famous but terrible:
The Belfry (Brabazon)
Trump National LA

[Paul Nash]

Overrated: Wentworth West, the Old Course

Underrated: Hankley Common; Kings Lynn, Blackmoor, Camberley Heath (perhaps)

[Bob_Huntley]

Yes, indeed - Pasatiempo is most definitely underrated.

How about Monterey Peninsula CC as underrated?  It gets good reviews on GCA (not just by Bob Huntley) but never seems to be high on any magazine's list.  I've never played either course, so this is just a guess.

Chip,

In retrospect there is quite a bit wrong with the Shore Course(Strantz) Course at MPCC. Now that the powers that be have succumbed to the siren call of hosting the A.T.& T. National Pro-Am, there is much ado about making changes to accomodate the PGA and the crowd control problems that are inherent in the flow of the course. It would appear that the 1st and 16th holes will be reduced to par 4s. The confluence of the 4th green, the fifth and seventeenth tees  is causing some concern and some hastily built tees and paths are being introduced. We must wait for things to be finished and we will see if the hard work will pay off.

Bob

[Sean Leary]

Yes, indeed - Pasatiempo is most definitely underrated.

How about Monterey Peninsula CC as underrated?  It gets good reviews on GCA (not just by Bob Huntley) but never seems to be high on any magazine's list.  I've never played either course, so this is just a guess.

Chip,

In retrospect there is quite a bit wrong with the Shore Course(Strantz) Course at MPCC. Now that the powers that be have succumbed to the siren call of hosting the A.T.& T. National Pro-Am, there is much ado about making changes to accomodate the PGA and the crowd control problems that are inherent in the flow of the course. It would appear that the 1st and 16th holes will be reduced to par 4s. The confluence of the 4th green, the fifth and seventeenth tees  is causing some concern and some hastily built tees and paths are being introduced. We must wait for things to be finished and we will see if the hard work will pay off.

Bob

Hi Bob,

Sounds like you are happy with these changes. I think.

Is that the case?

[Bob Jenkins]

Bob H.,

I recall you had some thoughts on #18 of the Shore Course and there have been discussions here in the past as to what could be done to that hole. Are changes contemplated? I think I recall that Gil Hanse is involved in the changes? Is that correct?

Regards and trust you are well!

Bob J

[Jud_T]

Paul,

The old course overrated? You've got to be joking...I'm not sure it's possible to overrate the course....

[Jay Flemma]

Most overrated:  Atunyote at Blarney Stone...err...Turning Stone Casino.

[David Stamm]

Yes, indeed - Pasatiempo is most definitely underrated.

How about Monterey Peninsula CC as underrated?  It gets good reviews on GCA (not just by Bob Huntley) but never seems to be high on any magazine's list.  I've never played either course, so this is just a guess.

Chip,

In retrospect there is quite a bit wrong with the Shore Course(Strantz) Course at MPCC. Now that the powers that be have succumbed to the siren call of hosting the A.T.& T. National Pro-Am, there is much ado about making changes to accomodate the PGA and the crowd control problems that are inherent in the flow of the course. It would appear that the 1st and 16th holes will be reduced to par 4s. The confluence of the 4th green, the fifth and seventeenth tees  is causing some concern and some hastily built tees and paths are being introduced. We must wait for things to be finished and we will see if the hard work will pay off.

Bob

Bob, since Stranz designed the course never knowing the course would be hosting the AT&T, would these changes still be taking place? When you say wrong, is this with the context of the tournament coming to the club?

[Sean_A]

Just using http://www.top100golfcourses.co.uk/htmlsite/topcourses.asp?id=1 for the GB&I here are ins and outs imo.

OUT: Bearwood Lakes, Belfry, Gullane #1, Hillside, Nefyn, S&A & Tralee

IN: Beau Desert, Brora ,Cavendish, Huntercombe, Kington, Princes & Tenby


Just using http://www.top100golfcourses.co.uk/htmlsite/country.asp?Move=Previous&id=177 for the US here is the in and out imo.

OUT: Yeamans Hall

IN: Old Town

I would like a way to find a place for Tobacco Road, but I don't know of a course I would toss.

Ciao

[Jim Tang]

Overrated....

1.  TPC Sawgrass - Stadium.  Wasn't what I thought it would be.
2.  Erin Hills.  Course doesn't live up to a great piece of land.
3.  Bay Harbor - Links/Quarry.  Not enough lake views, home on course.
4.  Kemper Lakes.  How in the world did it ever get a PGA?
5.  Pumpkin Ridge - Ghost Creek.  A lot of ink for a good golf course, not great.

Underrated....

1.  Greywalls - Suffers from middle of nowhere location, so much fun to play
2.  Kingsley Club.  As mentioned earlier by others, tons of fun, great design
3.  Blackwolf Run - River.  My all time fav parkland landout, Straits gets most of the love
4.  Bandon Dunes.  Gets knocked around a bit here.  Isn't Pac, but what is?
5.  Ballyneal.  Obviously loved here, but average Joe doesn't know it exists, stupid good golf, cult classic

[Chip Gaskins]

Overrated:
- Mer....no I am not
- Maidstone (way too many holes are very banal, almost all the way to #8 is pretty bland)
- Sawgrass (I simply dislike sharp edges, Sawgrass is filled with them)
- Baltusrol (All par 3s are long and the same club, repetitive long par 4s, very much a trudge)
- Bandon Dunes (I obviously missed something, several world class holes, however several clunkers)
- Erin Hills (Minimalism taken way too serious, someone crank up the bulldozer and flatten some of those driving zones out)
- Pinehurst #2 (flat, uninspiring with greens that borderline goofy at today's green speeds)

Underrated:
- Pine Needles (beautiful property, fantastic routing, great par 3s and short par 4s, how this can't be better than #2 is beyond me)
- Cal Club (probably won't be underrated much longer, maybe the best in SF now, the new holes are great!)
- Ballyneal (the most fun golf course I have every played, period)
- Pasatiempo (the best golf deal on the planet, a Doak restored Mackenzie for less than $200 in beautiful NorCal, best bunkering in golf)
- Piping Rock (Wow, big, bold CB Macdonald, fantastic Redan, fantastic greens, hard but so much fun)
- Western Gailes (What a sleeper, so fun, not sure what everyone misses)
- Prestwick (So so fun)
- Blue Mound (Fantastic Seth Raynor sleeper with an awesome Punchbowl and subtle, but amazingly set of greens)
- Pine Barrens (Great routing, great bunkers, no forced eye candy, one of the best short par 4s in golf)

Way Underrated:
- Tobacco Road (The best risk/reward course on the planet, such a visually stimulating and intimidating course...yet playable on an cool piece of land)
- Bandon Trails (Great routing, great use of natural land features, awesome centerline bunkers, two drivable par 4s, best par 3 on property, subtle and elegant)

[Jud_T]

Chip,

great list.  I agree wholeheartedly on Pine Needles.  But not on Pinehurst #2.  The most interesting greens complexes period.

[Mike_Trenham]

Chip: I agree with your comments on Bandon Trails, I played it for the first time in march and I am still trying to get my mind around many of those holes they are so restrained yet great, and the routing moves you across the property so efficiently.   The should flip flop Trails and Dunes position on any of the lists I've seen.

[Carl Nichols]

Chip:
Do you really think Bandon Trails is way underrated at 55 in the U.S. (Golf Mag) or 80 in the U.S. (Golf Digest)?  That's pretty heady company.

[Gareth Williams]

Overrated: Wentworth West, the Old Course

Underrated: Hankley Common; Kings Lynn, Blackmoor, Camberley Heath (perhaps)

We've spoken about this before Paul and I still think that you're wrong about the West Course!!!  It is (or was pre 2009...) a brilliant, strategic and challenging course but some people just can't look past all the "baggage" that comes with the West - namely the Pro tournament status/The European Tour being based there/The Clubhouse/The overly corporate feel/The cost to play etc

Looked as a Colt course by itself it is a fine examination of your game IMO. However as a pure golf experience it is not in the same class as Sunningdale Old/New though.

My initial picks however;

Over-rated

* The Old Course (take away the trappings of the history and see what is left - IMHO)
* Goodwood
* The London Club
* The Addington
* Old Head

Under-rated

* Humber Valley
* Pinnacle Point
* Hankley Common
* Woking
* Saunton East
* Queenwood

p.s. you were joking about Camberley Heath I hope?! It was a lovely Colt course but it has been utterly ruined over the last 10-15 years by successive owners 

[Chip Gaskins]

Chip:
Do you really think Bandon Trails is way underrated at 55 in the U.S. (Golf Mag) or 80 in the U.S. (Golf Digest)?  That's pretty heady company.

Carl-

If there are 55 or 80 better courses in the U.S. I have a lot of golf courses I need to see.  I suppose the question could be, how high would Trails be rated if the other two courses didn't exist and there was just the C&C course on that piece of property.

The constraint on #3, yet the strategy on each shot.
The use of the ridgeline on #4 that most GCAs would have flattened.
The simplicity of the green on #9
The green on #13 that looks completely natural yet had tons of fill to build up.
The cross bunker on #15 and the green that sits back in the hollow that looks right off of Royal Melbourne.
One of the best par 3s on the planet at #17.

Yes, it is in my top 20 in the world.

Chip

[Shane Wright]

A super clear one to me

Over - Portmarnock

Under - Waterville

they should be flip flopped.

[Jud_T]

No love for Portmarnock, what an usentimental bunch...OK, maybe it's more of a gem than one of the best courses on the planet.  But still can't think of many places I'd rather play...