Most Overrated and Underrated courses

[Shane Wright]

Jud - still can't think of many more places you'd rather play than Portmarnock? Seriously??

Wow.

[Paul Nash]

Paul,

The old course overrated? You've got to be joking...I'm not sure it's possible to overrate the course....

Jud - only played it once but I don't think how ever much I played it that I would rate it in the top 5 or 10 in the world. It was a great experience and I would love to play again but I feel that history is too intertwined with this course to rationally rank it at the top of the game and better than something like Dornoch or Castle Stuart - haven't played either but I know for sure that I would rank both significantly above the Old Course. I think ranking some top courses over others in a list of 1-xx is stupid. I think a better option is a score out of 10 (Doak) or 20 (peaugot).

Gareth - still don't see the West as top 20 or 30 in UK - top 100 yes - i.e. I think it is overrated with a poor finish from 14. Camberley Heath - not sure, some of it, IMHO is nicer than Wentworth West - first 12 holes or so very nice (mostly!). Not a strong opinion but I don't see a huge gap between this course and Wentworth West - although I would prefer Wentworth East or Edinburgh to either.

Again, very subjectively I know, but I prefer Bearwood to Wentworth and believe that it deserves a top 100 spot - and I can only see it getting better as they make further tweaks over the years

[Jud_T]

Paul- i agree that the Doak scale is much better than 1-100...i'd give Portmarnock a 7.5 with a bullet. so maybe it is a tad overrated

Shane- yes there are places i'd rather play, just not all that many. 

alot of discussion about Wentworth west.  How about the east course?  While clearly not a top 100 candidate on anyones list I think it is unfairly overshadowed by the west course and may infact be an underrated candidate...

[Mike Wagner]

Jim & Chip,

Erin Hills overrated?  Where is it even rated?  It's a monster, indeed.  It's brand new - to not see the potential and call it overrated...tough.

My guess (based on the bulldozer comment) is that it chewed you up and spit you out.  Overall, I find the better the player, the more they like the course.

[Shane Wright]

Mike,

I like Erin Hills....definitely more than Chip.  But isn't even close to the hardest course he has played.  Erin Hills isn't overly difficult, but has the options to make it REALLY difficult which is one reason it has gotten the close looks it has on USGA events (US AM, OPEN, etc.).

There are several areas on the course that are goofy because they decided not to move any dirt.  And they weren't goofy in a Lahinch or Cruden Bay type of way.  They were just really goofy.  The green at 2 and 10 are perfect examples. 

But I never thought, wow, this is just a monster of a  course.  Granted, if you lose your driver swing temporarily, it is going to be a long day. 

But I don't think Chip's playing ability had anything to do with his opinion. 

[Mike Wagner]

Shane,

I wasn't knocking anyone's playing ability - it's just an observation from seeing hundreds of players. 

The 2nd green has been enlargened 40% - it's an awesome hole.  10 is not the best, but IMO, it's not the green - it's the 2nd shot landing area.  The green just requires a good shot to either the front or the back.  If it's in the bowl, you should just feel lucky and hit it close - that pin doesn't require much distance skill - only line.

[Shane Wright]

Noted.

And yes, I like the course as a whole. 

[Kalen Braley]

I know not many have been to see it yet..

But based on its lack of publicity and how good it is, I'm going to put Wine Valley in the under-rated category...it really is worth the effort to see.

[Scott Warren]

you were joking about Camberley Heath I hope?! It was a lovely Colt course but it has been utterly ruined over the last 10-15 years 

I think you'd find plenty on here who'd suggest that line applies just as fittingly to Wentworth West...

[Gareth Williams]

you were joking about Camberley Heath I hope?! It was a lovely Colt course but it has been utterly ruined over the last 10-15 years 

I think you'd find plenty on here who'd suggest that line applies just as fittingly to Wentworth West...

pre 2009, no I can't agree and would defend the West.

post 2009/2010, the jury is out....

[Jud_T]

mike and shane,

I loved the old 2nd green at Erin Hills.  The fact that they felt the need to enlarge it to cowtow and try to get an open is very discouraging.  I haven't played the course since the renovations, but based on things like this I'm not optimistic.

[Shane Wright]

JUD - to each his own.  You love P and I can think of 100 courses off the top of my head that I would rather play.

Agree to disagree.

[Jim Tang]

Mike -

In regards to Erin Hills:

I believe Shane said it perfectly when he called several of the holes "goofy".  For me, I felt some of the landing areas were way too narrow, especially when the landing area was blind from the tee.  There were too many blind elements on the golf course, especially within the first 6 holes or so, where you have a blind element on just about every hole.

I do agree that Erin Hills has tremendous potential.

I call it overrated becasue, living here in the Midwest, we were pumped full of hype, told how great Erin Hills was from a variety of local print services, how it was good enough to hold a U.S. Open.  I just feel the way the course was promoted did not match the reality of what the course actually is.

To address the  "The better player appreciates Erin Hills" argument, I played the course with 2 other buddies.  All three of us are single digit handicaps.  We all were greatly disappointed in Erin Hills.

[Bob_Huntley]

Sean and Bob,

Too soon to tell about the changes. Strantz's original siting of the 5th and 17th tee was, in my opinion, awkward indeed.

The 18th hole and especially its green, is quite possible one of his weakest creations. It will be changed after the 2010 A.T. & T. Pro-Am.

Bob

[Kalen Braley]

Sean and Bob,

Too soon to tell about the changes. Strantz's original siting of the 5th and 17th tee was, in my opinion, awkward indeed.

The 18th hole and especially its green, is quite possible one of his weakest creations. It will be changed after the 2010 A.T. & T. Pro-Am.

Bob

Bob,

Very interesting.  Do you have any details you can share with how the 18th will be changed? 
 
Thanks,

[Bob_Huntley]

Kalen,

I haven't a clue. No matter what they do, it would have to be an improvement.

Bob

[Tim Leahy]

Underrated:

Torrey South-especially on this site
Olympic Club-Lake
Riviera
Stone Eagle

Overrated:

Pinehurst #2
Barona Creek

[Mike Wagner]

Jud,

The 2nd green is much better now IMO. It's still very tough.  Too bad this is discouraging to you...you're missing out on a great, versatile golf course.

[Mike Wagner]

Jim,

What holes do you find goofy for driving the ball? 

[Chip Gaskins]

Mike-

Erin Hills is a fine course...it is just IN MY OPINION (one guy) takes the minimalist movement to the far end of the spectrum.  There are several holes that just need flatter driving zones.  Look, like I love places like Prestwick and Lahinch and Tobacco Road where there are blind/semi blind tee shots, however on the other side of the blindness you find a flat forgiving driving zone.  I found at Erin Hills there were numerous situations where you hit and hope and when you got the other side you found even more blindness and unevenness for, in my opinion, no reason other than for the sake of "don't move any dirt".  #2, #8 in a big way, #10 in the biggest way, and others....seriously, I am not looking to pick it apart but I do want to support my position to some extent.  It is a fine course, I just can't say it is as good as the major hype I have seen from it.  We all played pretty well, several eagles (#10, #14) and birdies, we all just thought it was very goofy in spots.  An amazing piece of property, a great clubhouse/cabin/food, a good routing, fantastic staff, but holes that simply need to be softened, a lot.

Respectfully,
Chip

[Sean Leary]

Mike,

I am guessing with all of your time there that you are going to have a different perspective than those people who have only played it once or twice. Seems like a course where it takes a number of rounds to fully appreciate many of the nuances.

[Jud_T]

Tim,

again with Pinehurst #2?. and Barona? as far as I know it's only rated in best casino courses in golfweek, which I believe is appropriate.  And it's the only good track I've found yet in metro San Diego...

[Mike Wagner]

Chip,

If I'm coming off defensive, I don't mean to be.  Sean's statement is correct - spending so much time there gives me a different perspective - and it is definitely one of those courses that can play SOOOO differently day to day.

I love hearing what people like and don't like about it.  The blindness part is funny to me, as when I play well there (blue tees), I consider it a good round to have no blind shots.  #2 is becoming my favorite driving hole ever - so much reward or a properly placed tee shot.  #10 is definitely not my favorite....it will be improved.

Anyway, the feedback is great...

[Jim Tang]

Mike -

To each his own, I say.  I know there are people who like Erin Hills, and in no way does my opinion change any of that.  I am not trying to do that in this thread.  My first impression of Erin Hills wasn't favorable.  That is all.  I have exactly one round on the course, so by no means am I the athority on Erin Hills.

Again, I have to agree with Chip.  My major issue was this; many holes are blind from the tee.  Fine, I can deal with that.  However, often I found the landing area was then very narrow, or very uneven with a lot of movement.  I just think you've got to give the golfer something, at least some of the time.

What is the first hole you play that doesn't have some type of blind element to it?  I could be wrong, but I believe the first 6  or 7 holes have some blindness to them.  I remember having to wait a long time until there was actually a hole where I got to see everything in front of me.

The back to back par 3's also worried me.  I don't mind them being back to back.  The first one plays slightly uphill (blind) while the next, the replication of the Dell Hole, plays slightly downhill.  I hit the exact same club (so did everyone else in my group) for both tee shots.  I know the yardages of both holes vary, but the uphill and downhill had them playing the same distance the day we were there.

[Mike Wagner]

Jim,

Dell hole is gone.  It's now a par 5 and the "bye" hole is in play as #9.

I agree - to each his own.  I totally respect someone not enjoying some blindness on a golf course.  Some people just don't like it.  I happen to think it works beautifully on a bunch of holes out there because you can get around with no blind approach shots....that's the reward.