Kinloch----real-life Doak rating needed

[Brad Wilbur]

A great friend of mine has been invited to Kinloch, and can bring two of his friends along.  Although I have read what is posted on this site, my question is---Would you fly from Las Vegas to Virginia just to play it?  Is it that good?

[Jim Franklin]

If you could make it up to Baltimore and play Five Farms then the trip would be worth it. I would have to say you need a couple of more places to play to make it worth it. Kinloch is nice though. Bottom half of Top 100 for me.

[Rob_Waldron]

Brad

Kinloch is the "Real Deal" of golfing experiences. I agree with Jim that you should either play another course while in area or at least spend a couple of days at Kinloch. Those who are critical of the design certainly appreciate the outstanding conditioning and service provided by Phil Owenby and staff. I am planning to be there during the next couple of weeks myself....and I cannot wait!

[Dave Givnish]

Since most of Las Vegas is probably being overseeded - go!  You can get to Richmond easily on JetBlue or USAir and the club is about 25-30 minutes from the airport.

Spring Creek is not too far away and is getting good reviews. 

[Jay Flemma]

Yes.  I walked it earlier this year and yes, it's quite enjoyable.  Lots of centerline bunkers and diagonal hazards.  2,4,6,8, stood out on the front nine.  I wasn't a huge fan of the hole called the redan as it had some modern twists, but the fairways are undulating, there are some nice green contours, and the routing is strong.

Doak 7? Maybe a little higher?

[PThomas]

a Doak 7  or 8

[Carl Nichols]

I think Kinloch's terrific, but there's a pretty small group of courses that I'd fly cross-country to play by themselves, and Kinloch isn't one of them.  If you could play 1 or 2 other Richmond courses (I've heard the CC of Virginia redo went well), perhaps head down to Williamsburg, or make it up to DC and play a few places, then I'd say it's a great anchor to a trip. 

[Mike Sweeney]

Brad

Kinloch is the "Real Deal" of golfing experiences. I agree with Jim that you should either play another course while in area or at least spend a couple of days at Kinloch. Those who are critical of the design certainly appreciate the outstanding conditioning and service provided by Phil Owenby and staff. I am planning to be there during the next couple of weeks myself....and I cannot wait!

I once has a morning meeting once in Richmond and was set to play Kinloch in the afternoon. My golf bag missed the flight so I show up at Kinloch before my host and Phil and his staff scramble for shoes and bags and the rest to get me on the course.

Vegas might be a little far to jump on a plane for just the architecture, but Phil and his staff are a real pleasure to be with. Maybe tie it into a Pinehurst trip.

[Adam_Messix]

Mike--

You described Phil Owenby perfectly, one of the great pros in golf and a true gentleman.  The service that the staff at Kinloch gives is phenomenal and Phil has much to do with that.  Another thing to add, Peter Wendt keeps Kinloch in extraordinary condition. 

The man who does not get nearly enough credit for Kinloch is Charlie Staples.  He is on the short list of the most knowledgable people in the golf business.  I emphasize business because he understands the model of how to put a club together and make it work and how to run other types of golf operations and have them be successful as well. 

[Cabell Ackerly]

I'd say it's a Doak 8.  There's no question it is one of the best courses in the region. I'm not sure it would be on my short list to fly cross-country to see on its own, but then again there are only about 5 or 6 courses I would do that for.

Like others have said, it may make the trip more palatable if you can play at a couple of other places. In Richmond, CC of VA - James River is a solid William Flynn design, and DC is only 2 hours away. Richmond's a nice city too, with a lot of history and good restaurants, so it doesn't have to be all about the golf either.

When would you be going? Kinloch is all cool-season grasses and immaculate year round, so you won't have any dormancy/over-seeding issues, but it can start to get a bit chilly here in November.

[Jay Flemma]

Maybe tie Kinloch to a trip to Old White or Ballyhack or Williamsburg!

[Wade Whitehead]

If resources permit, fly to play Kinloch.

Ballyhack is three hours west of Kinloch.

Primland is 1.5 hours south of Ballyhack and/or The Olde Farm is two hours southwest of Ballyhack.

That leaves you with a bit of a drive back to the Richmond airport, but you'd get to see southwest Virginia just as the leaves are starting to change.

WW

[Jerry Kluger]

Kinloch is a very interesting and fun course with impeccable conditioning and is certainly worth an effort to play.  My suggestion would be to also play Royal New Kent in order to see the genius of the late Mike Strantz and play the Golden Horseshoe gold course which is a wonderful RTJ course with his trademark runway tees, a great set of par 3s, and is on an incredibly small piece of property.  Oh yeah, RNK and the Horseshoe are real bargains and Williamsburg is also a good value for hotels and food.

[Lester George]

I like Kinloch alot!!!!!!!!!!

Lester

[Lester George]

Brad,

Kinloch has recently been named by GolfWorld readers as the fourth best in the US as private clubs go. 

I think it went

1. Oak Hill
2. Pine Valley
3. Augusta National
4. Kinloch......

I am sure I don't recall the rest as I was flattered to be included in with those great clubs. 

To answer your question, yes, I would fly across country to play Kinloch.  Yes, I am biased, but I think its that good.  If you come, you should also see Ballyhack as others have mentioned.  It is the exact opposite of Kinloch and extremely well received in its early comments including conditioning and service.

Lester

[Ronald Montesano]

Nothing against Oak Hill, but ... huh?

[Tom_Doak]

Brad:

If you went, what rating would you give the course?

(If it's below an 8, you can respond privately.)

There is, of course, no real Doak rating for the course because I have not been there, and no one else in my family rates golf courses.

[cary lichtenstein]

Very good course, a real joy to play

[John Kirk]

Brad:

If you went, what rating would you give the course?

(If it's below an 8, you can respond privately.)

There is, of course, no real Doak rating for the course because I have not been there, and no one else in my family rates golf courses.

If 1948 Heisman Award winner Doak Walker rated golf courses, would this be considered a legitimate Doak rating?

Kinloch is really a nice place.  Easy to walk, except for the long distance between the 9th green and 10th tee.  The holes have a nice progression and possess considerable strategic interest.  It is very natural and beautiful.  The greens are generally kept very fast and smooth, and are very enjoyable to play.

I'm biased, too, but on the unnamed 10 point logarithmic scale, it's a 7 or 8, clearly better than your typical championship golf course.

[mark chalfant]

Ive not played Kinloch yet, but well travelled golfers whose opinions I respect have spoken very highly of the course. Fairly close to Kinloch ( 3hours or so)  are two fabulous layouts.

Baltimore CC by Tillingahst
Columbia CC in Chevy Chase, MD     by H.  Barker / Travis

[Anthony_Nysse]

If you were willing to get on a plane and fly to Honors, Sage Valley, Kiawah, Harbor Town, TPC, Ocean Forest, Sea Island or Pinehurst, then you shouldnt even be askign the question. Kinloch is that good. Never have I played a modern course with SO MANY options off the tees-#2, #4, #9, #11, #15 and #16 offer tremedous rewards for the risk. The conditioning is on a level of the top 1% of courses in the world and it's pure golf. I would drop anything to play at Kinloch again.

[Jonathan Cummings]

I'm biased, too, but on the unnamed 10 point logarithmic scale, it's a 7 or 8, clearly better than your typical championship golf course.

John - Using your scaling system a log 7 of 10 means there are 1000 better courses than Kinloch.  Using an 8 there are 100 better.

[Mike Nuzzo]

JC
Are you picking on John's use of log or do you think there are 100,000 courses better than a 5?
Technically Doak isn't a log scale otherwise there would be mostly ones....

This is my guess on take offs...

10s - 10
9s - 20
8s - 50
7s - 150
6s - 400
5s - 1000
4s - 3000
3s - 8500 - average or mean or median
2s - 3000
1s - 1000
0s - 400

Total - 17,530?

[Jeff_Brauer]

Mike,

As you may recall, TD sort of covered his behind by stating that since he wouldn't go to see a below average course, a 1 was really a 5, a 2 was a 5.5, etc. As a result, your totals should only come up to about 8500 courses.

I suspect that the totals would come out nearly the standard bell curve, with 10% each in the top and bottom 2-3 categories and the rest in the middel range.  But, since 1 is 5, there might be 20% in the top six categories or 1750 courses, which is rght about where you are.

[Jud_T]

Well,

Is it a 7 or an 8? According to the original scale if it's a 7 it's worth a game if you're within 100 miles, if it's an 8 it's worth a special trip to see.  No disrespect Lester, but there are 23 clubs on the Golfworld Private list above Crystal Downs and Sand Hills, of which probably only 1 or 2 are deserving in terms of pure GCA....