INFLUENCE on Ross

[Anthony Gray]

  What influenced Ross's work/philosophy more? His time touring with Old Tom Morris or his earlier days at Royal Dornorch?


   Anthony

[Tom MacWood]

Anthony
Which tour with Old Tom are you referring to?

[Anthony Gray]

Anthony
Which tour with Old Tom are you referring to?

 Tom,

 While in Scotland I questioned a golf historian about what direct influence OTM had on Donald Ross. He stated that they were on around 10 course sites during construction. Is that true? Also how much of RD do we see in Ross's work? What at Pinehurst or other courses looks like RD? It appears to me (possibly incorrect) that his courses may look more like OTM courses than like RD. As a student am I correct in my assumption or is there more I need to know? Thank you for you input Tom. After playing both RD and pinehurst I saw only a few things that I thought were similiar.

  Anthony

[Garland Bayley]

Ross wrote:

"My Design Standards"

"These are my standards to laying out a golf course: Make each hole present a different problem. So arrange it that every stroke must be made with full concentration and attention necessary to good golf. Build each hole in such a manner that it wastes none of the ground at my disposal, and takes advantage of every possibility I can see."

Golf Has Never Failed Me

I don't recall him ever attributing OTM in his book, but the above thought could concievingly have come from his relationship with him. Or, it could have come from RD as it sounds like how people describe RD.

[Tom MacWood]

Anthony
Which tour with Old Tom are you referring to?

 Tom,

 While in Scotland I questioned a golf historian about what direct influence OTM had on Donald Ross. He stated that they were on around 10 course sites during construction. Is that true?

Anthony

No, its not true. Who was the golf historian?

[Melvyn Morrow]

Tom

Rather than just say no, what proof have you to back up your comment.

Anthony, do not mention the name until Tom comes up with his proof or is it just another MacWood statement with no justification?

The ball is in your court Tom

As for me, I make no comment, but I know the individual Anthony is talking about, so look forward to your actual proof to back up your statement.

Melvyn

[Tom MacWood]

Melvyn
Let me re-phrase my comments...there is no way in hell Ross was on a one course tour much less a ten course tour with OTM.

Ross's history is well documented. OTM came to Dornoch in 1886 to expand the course from nine to 18 holes. Ross was 14 years old. Unless OTM was of the habit of picking up young boys in small Scottish towns and taking them on tour with him we know it didn't happen at that time. Ross apprenticed under the club-maker Forgan in 1892 and then returned as the pro at Dornoch, where he remained until 1899, when he came to the States. During these years Donald Ross was an anonymous professional/greenkeeper, in fact he was more professional than greenkeeper because John Sutherland was the acting greenkeeper at Dornoch. Richard Tufts wrote that they did not hire Ross at Pinehurst for his greenkeeping skills, but rather for his golfing skills.

If there is anyone who influenced Ross's early career in golf architecture it would have been John Sutherland (the unsung man behind Dornoch and a very fine architect in his own right), and most likely Colt was the major influence when he took up the profession seriously.

[Phil_the_Author]

Tom,

Let me preface this by saying that I have nothing to add to the discussion as to whether ot not OTm & Ross spent any time together at a number of courses or not. The reason for this comment was were two sentences that you wrote. "Ross was 14 years old. Unless OTM was of the habit of picking up young boys in small Scottish towns and taking them on tour with him we know it didn't happen at that time..."

From our perspective today 14 is rather young and inexperienced, but in those days it certainly wasn't. 14 would have qualified him as a man to many; a young man, but a man nevertheless. Let me give you an example. In 1862, at the age of 12, B.C. Tillinghast, Tilly's father, entered the U.S. Merchant Marines and went to sea as a seaman. He wasn't a "cabin boy" but a working seaman. It was this experience that enabled him to enter the U.S. Naval Academy on July 3rd of 1866 when he was 16 years old. The records of the Academy state that he entered with the title of “Naval Apprentice,” or in other words, what today would be referred to as being “from the fleet.” This designation proves that he entered directly from another branch of enlisted naval service, in other words, the Merchant Marines.

Ross' age should have nothing to do with the discussion... I'm looking forward to what you guys will present...

[Tom MacWood]

Tom,

Let me preface this by saying that I have nothing to add to the discussion as to whether ot not OTm & Ross spent any time together at a number of courses or not. The reason for this comment was were two sentences that you wrote. "Ross was 14 years old. Unless OTM was of the habit of picking up young boys in small Scottish towns and taking them on tour with him we know it didn't happen at that time..."

From our perspective today 14 is rather young and inexperienced, but in those days it certainly wasn't. 14 would have qualified him as a man to many; a young man, but a man nevertheless. Let me give you an example. In 1862, at the age of 12, B.C. Tillinghast, Tilly's father, entered the U.S. Merchant Marines and went to sea as a seaman. He wasn't a "cabin boy" but a working seaman. It was this experience that enabled him to enter the U.S. Naval Academy on July 3rd of 1866 when he was 16 years old. The records of the Academy state that he entered with the title of “Naval Apprentice,” or in other words, what today would be referred to as being
“from the fleet.” This designation proves that he entered directly from another branch of enlisted naval service, in other words, the Merchant Marines.

Ross' age should have nothing to do with the discussion... I'm looking forward to what you guys will present...

Huh? Thank you for interjecting the term 'cabin boy' into the discussion.

[Melvyn Morrow]

Tom

You are a little shy on proof. Not interested in what you think but actual proof is required, so put up or shut up.

I find it hard to believe that you dismiss information which you have no idea who said it or their source. Boy, have you really got it in for Old Tom.

I don’t take kindly to your comment about Old Tom being a child snatcher either and should we ever meet you will feel the full thrust of my argument.

It is a base, disgraceful comment to make and totally uncalled for.  You have crossed the line on this one as far as I am concerned.

Melvyn

[Niall C]

Anthony

I think its safe to say that Ross had the opportunity to be exposed to a lot of design ideas at St Andrews, Dornoch and else where.

At St Andrews, even discounting the influence of Old Tom, he would have been right in the melting pot of ideas about golf and golf course design. St Andrews then, as now, was a mecca for golfers and therefore he would have probably have heard what was happening in design as with other aspects of golf.

At Dornoch he was the professional but this was a time that a professional often did the greenkeeping and clubmaking. John Sutherland, who was club secretary at Dornoch would have been a big influence. Sutherland played in the British Amateur for a long number of years and held the course record at several courses including Brora, Wick and of course Dornoch. Sutherland is largely responsible for re-designing, altering and extending most of the holes at Dornoch over a long period (Rich is the man to tell you about it) and also designed Brora and Skibo while Ross was pro at Dornoch so it is conceivable that Ross was involved on those two courses on the construction side.

The other thing to bear in mind is that Dornoch at that time was a popular golfing tourist resort and Ross would have played with the likes of JH Taylor and John L Low, who were regular visitors to Dornoch so he would have had the benefit of their thoughts I'm sure.

Niall 

[Tom MacWood]

Melvyn
Things must not be going well at OTM-fountainhead-of-everything-good-dealing-with-golf-architecture Headquarters, you are now resorting to Argument from Ignorance tactics.

As far your not so veiled threats, lighten up. Old Tom was known for lightheartedness and good sense of humor. Did you not inherit those traits or were you adopted?

[Tom MacWood]

Niall
Sutherland laid out the first nine at Brora in 1891 and the second nine in 1902. Skibo was laid out in 1902. Ross was a carpenter's apprentice in 1891 and was the USA in 1902.

[Rich Goodale]

Anthony

I have no doubt that Sutherland was the greater influence on Ross, as the two we both natives of Dornoch and worked together there for some time sharing greenkeeping/design ideas as well as playing golf together.  Ross also came back from the USA several times to Dornoch, firstly in 1910.  That being said, his time in St. Andrews, where he had frequent and significant interaction with Old Tom and the other golfing worthies of that time, was probably also highly influential, paricularly as it happened in the early years of his adulthood, and after Sutherland had already noted his golfing ability.  I would doubt if he did any golfing tours with OTM in the 1893-1895 period he was at St. Andrews, but I could be wrong.  It is more probable that he helped out Sutherland in the work he did at Brora and perhaps elsewhere.

Tom MacW

According to newspaper accounts, the 2nd 9 at Brora was opened August 1897, so it is very possible that Ross could have been involved with Sutherland in that work.  Also, to assert as you did above that Sutherland is "the unsung hero" at Dornoch is very naive.  He is and has always been credited with his signficant contributions to the architecture and agronomy of Royal Dornoch, building on and continuously improving Old Tom's initial design, by the people who count--the people of Dornoch.  He is unsung only to those who are tone deaf or just have never cared about GCA.

Rich

[Tom MacWood]

Tom MacW
According to newspaper accounts, the 2nd 9 at Brora was opened August 1897, so it is very possible that Ross could have been involved with Sutherland in that work.  Also, to assert as you did above that Sutherland is "the unsung hero" at Dornoch is very naive.  He is and has always been credited with his signficant contributions to the architecture and agronomy of Royal Dornoch, building on and continuously improving Old Tom's initial design, by the people who count--the people of Dornoch.  He is unsung only to those who are tone deaf or just have never cared about GCA.

Rich

Rich
I'm glad to hear the locals appreciate Sutherland. IMO he should be better known in the greater golfing world than he is currently.

[Tom MacWood]

Well, it seems to me that Harry Colt must have had at least some influence on Ross's post-1913 work, given that they walked around Old Elm together for a few days before Ross built it for Colt.

Dave
I agree with you, and actually they were involved in more projects together than what is generally known. This is a developing story.

[Rich Goodale]

Tom MacW
According to newspaper accounts, the 2nd 9 at Brora was opened August 1897, so it is very possible that Ross could have been involved with Sutherland in that work.  Also, to assert as you did above that Sutherland is "the unsung hero" at Dornoch is very naive.  He is and has always been credited with his signficant contributions to the architecture and agronomy of Royal Dornoch, building on and continuously improving Old Tom's initial design, by the people who count--the people of Dornoch.  He is unsung only to those who are tone deaf or just have never cared about GCA.

Rich

Rich
I'm glad to hear the locals appreciate Sutherland. IMO he should be better known in the greater golfing world than he is currently.

Thanks for that article, Tom.  I can see why you misunderstood that his work in 1902 was the second 9 at Brora (which was completed in 1897) rather than the extension of the then existing 18.

[Tom MacWood]

Rich
Could you please post the articles?

[Rich Goodale]

Rich
Could you please post the articles?

Ask Melvyn, Tom.  He has the original.

[Tom MacWood]

Do you have the articles?

[Rich Goodale]

Ask Melvyn, and be nicey, nicey.

[Tom MacWood]

Its an easy question. Do you have the articles?

[Rich Goodale]

It's an easy answer, Tom.  I have a copy of an article which Melvyn kindly send me.  If you want a copy of that article too, ask Melvyn.

[Melvyn Morrow]

Tom

In the immortal words of Barry Humphries look to your e-mail Tom, “You smooth talking bastard”, of course, no disrespect actually intended. ESP is alive and working, now that is something to prove.

I believe that is pure Aussie humour, I expect those from 'Down Under 'may correct me if I have it wrong.

Melvyn

PS  Please feel free to say thanks or more likely to disagree with the articles. Love you to meet the authors in person.

[Tom MacWood]

Thanks Melvyn, I look forward to receiving it. I assume its on its way.