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Jay Flemma

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Scotland Run/Stephen Kay
« on: September 29, 2009, 05:21:43 PM »
I took Mayday's advice and played here and Rock Manor a few weeks ago and really enjoyed the course.  It reminded me a little of Pine Hill in places.  There's a double green on 2, an old-school wall to carry on 10, and a number of hole splayed through a sandy quarry-like section of the property.  Nice wide fairways, open routes to many greens so you can airmail or B&R, and good green contours.

Anybody else play there?

How come we never discuss Stephen Kay's work much here on the site?  I rather enjoyed LND and McCulloughs too...
Mackenzie, MacRayBanks, Maxwell, Doak, Dye, Strantz. @JayGolfUSA, GNN Radio Host of Jay's Plays www.cybergolf.com/writerscorner

Matt_Ward

Re: Scotland Run/Stephen Kay
« Reply #1 on: September 29, 2009, 05:28:01 PM »
Jay:

They have been discussed.

If you want to play a really solid Kay layout that gets very little attention head to The Links at Unionvale in Lagrangeville, NY -- about 75-90 minutes north of Manhattan.

McCullough's is also quite good in spots -- but the dog holes are the 15th and 16th -- the ones across the road which are real mutts and don't fit in.

LND has been touched upon -- I like the back nine but feel the front is really pedestrian until you reach the par-5 7th.

I also believe Scotland Run is one of the best public layouts in all of Jersey. Gets little attention because of the fanfare some provide to Pine Hill which is relatively nearby. Play Links at Unionvale -- could make the top ten public in all of NY in my mind.


Steve_ Shaffer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Scotland Run/Stephen Kay
« Reply #2 on: September 29, 2009, 06:49:04 PM »
As Matt said, it's one of the top publics in NJ. For me, the rates a little high and there are no senior rates:

http://www.scotlandrun.com/scheduleRates.htm

Blue Heron Pines was the first of Kay's courses here. It's a good course, except for the first hole, and has some interesting holes- an homage to Hell's Half Acre and some other holes with good cross bunkers.





Harbor Pines is another good effort.  http://www.harborpines.com/
« Last Edit: September 29, 2009, 06:51:11 PM by Steve_ Shaffer »
"Some of us worship in churches, some in synagogues, some on golf courses ... "  Adlai Stevenson
Hyman Roth to Michael Corleone: "We're bigger than US Steel."
Ben Hogan “The most important shot in golf is the next one”

Michael Mimran

Re: Scotland Run/Stephen Kay
« Reply #3 on: September 29, 2009, 07:42:39 PM »
Matt, Totally agree in regards to Unionvale.  Played it a couple weeks ago for the first time in a few years.  Course was in excellent shape, everything was pretty firm.  46 bucks to walk on the weekend is very reasonable considering what some other courses in the area charge that aren't nearly as good.

What are your thoughts on the 14th hole?  I'm personally not a big fan, I think the fairway off the tee should be wider considering the monster 2nd shot that's required.  I get why he routed the hole that long but I think for a hole of that length it's far to tight for the average player.  It seems like he had a lot of room to work with on the left side of the hole (unless he couldn't remove any trees that might block it for environmental purposes.

Aerial of 14...



Another plus is Unionvale is only 10 miles from Harlem Valley golf club.  So for appox $60 bucks you can play 2 really interesting completely opposite courses.

Mike
« Last Edit: September 29, 2009, 07:50:36 PM by MikeSM »

Matt_Ward

Re: Scotland Run/Stephen Kay
« Reply #4 on: September 29, 2009, 07:50:59 PM »
Mike:

I agree with you on Unionvale -- it's a shame because it gets little attention. Too many people flock to such overrated layouts like Centennial and Mansion Ridge. Both are more about surface level gloss than what you see at Unionvale.

I am not a fan of the fairway cut-off at the 1st hole. I've told this to Stephen and he understands that I generally don't like forced lay-ups of that type. The 2nd hole uses the same concept althouth the cut-off point is much further down the fairway. The 14th also uses that same design element and I have to wonder if other options were possible. The closing hole also uses the same element.

Despite that -- you have plenty of wonderful par-4's -- the back-to-back par-4's withthe 15th and 16th are both superb.

You are right -- for the $$ it's incredibly hard to beat.

Given the shortage of top tier public options in NY State -- I am surprised more has not been mentioned on Unionvale.

Easily beats out the likes of Blue Heron Pines and Harbor Pines and is no less in quality than Links of North Dakota in my mind.

Tom Dunne

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Scotland Run/Stephen Kay
« Reply #5 on: September 29, 2009, 07:51:08 PM »
I'll take Scotland Run over Unionvale as a course but all things considered would say I am more likely to play the latter. The former has its faults--the routing gets painted into a bit of a corner on the back nine--but it has some fun shots and a decent mix of holes overall. Sort of falls in that category of courses that are the equivalent of a good "Wednesday night wine", though with a three-figure green fee I don't love SR on value.

As for Unionvale, as Matt says, it's about an hour and a half from Manhattan, but it feels like longer--it's officially in the boonies. It's got an unusual farm/faux-links atmosphere that actually works better than it probably should. The dominant feature of the course is a broad wetland that pretty much bisects the entire property, and my big problem with UV is that I really dislike the way it was used. I don't know what existed in the way of natural features here before the course, and I won't pretend that I could out-route Stephen Kay here--but the wetland is used in a pretty aggressive fashion. You have to cross it on four holes--twice heading one way, twice the other--and in three instances it's really only used to take the driver out of the average guy's hands. I don't mind that per se, but for me it's pretty one-dimensional, and it gets worse as the golfer's power diminishes. My wife, who can definitely hit the ball a little bit, won't play UV.

Matt, I know you're a long hitter--do you have the option of driving it over the wetland on #1?  I could see that being a fun thing to try.

Those four stick out in my memory, but there is some good golf out there. The place still feels pretty ad hoc, with experiments with different bunker styles on some holes that sometimes work and sometimes don't. Mix of some relatively easy holes and some bears. The nice thing about UV is that it's a very good value ($40ish?) and pace of play has always been good, in my experience.




 



Matt_Ward

Re: Scotland Run/Stephen Kay
« Reply #6 on: September 29, 2009, 08:08:01 PM »
Tom:

You make an excellent point -- if the fees were comparable the qualities of Scotland Run would likely experience more play. Steve made a good point before -- the facility doesn't have senior rates and for a layout located in Williamstown (Glloucester County) you'd think they would have a range of loyalty programs tied to return play.

I salute Kay for what he did at Unionvale but the wetland carry elements could have been possibly configured in a different way. For example -- instead of head-on situations -- create more diagonally-based elements that allow the player to think about how mucht o cut-off. Now it's fairly basic -- you simply lay-up and go from there. When done once I have no issue with it but Unionvale throws the same concept at you a few times.

Nonetheless, it does offer some clear imagination with the routing because of the fairly tight quarters. I also like what Kay and his associate Doug Smith did with the diagonal bunkering on a few of the holes -- mainly the 9th and 16th, to name just two examples.

Tom, I've been with a few people who hit it by me with ease and they won't attempt the carry at #1. Usually plays into a headwind and the carry is minimum of 325 yards.

Like you said the nature of that feature happening again and again might prove daunting to other players -- namely your wife as you previously mentioned. Still provides great value -- is very walkable and has more positives than negatives given what the other options are in the area.


Jay Flemma

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Scotland Run/Stephen Kay
« Reply #7 on: September 29, 2009, 08:48:56 PM »
L@UV better than LND :o  That's a BOLD statement, Matt.  Now I'm really looking forward to playing there.

Steve, do you think Stephen has some PV at SR too?  Like 11?  16?  I love 16:  what a great driving hole.
Mackenzie, MacRayBanks, Maxwell, Doak, Dye, Strantz. @JayGolfUSA, GNN Radio Host of Jay's Plays www.cybergolf.com/writerscorner

TEPaul

Re: Scotland Run/Stephen Kay
« Reply #8 on: September 29, 2009, 09:37:12 PM »
Jay:

Yeah, I remember Scotland Run even though it's been a while now. I went over there and interviewed them for memberhip into GAP when they first opened and we held a few tournaments there. Nice course indeed, even if I'm having a hard time remembering all the holes now. I do remember that hole that was routed through or near an old quarry or quarry operation.

Steven is a pretty good friend over the years; a very interesting guy in his outlook and approach to golf course architecture. He sure did a fine restoration of Llanerch too. He actually volunteered to do some officiating for GAP and those times were the best and most time to really talk architecture.

Steven is also the one who told me that fascinating story about the greens of Pinehurst #2 and how they came to be as crowned as they are today. I even asked him to confirm the story and he pretty much did from a number of sources and directions.

Steven Kay builds some really fun and interesting golf courses for sure!

Mike Nuzzo

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Scotland Run/Stephen Kay
« Reply #9 on: September 29, 2009, 09:45:26 PM »
What is LND?

* I lived in NJ for many years and have played most of the courses mentioned in this thread and have talked with Stephen Kay.  How can people from around the world understand this abbreviation?
Thinking of Bob, Rihc, Bill, George, Neil, Dr. Childs, & Tiger.

Jay Flemma

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Scotland Run/Stephen Kay
« Reply #10 on: September 29, 2009, 09:47:17 PM »
What is LND?

* I lived in NJ for many years and have played most of the courses mentioned in this thread and have talked with Stephen Kay.  How can people from around the world understand this abbreviation?

LND = Links of North Dakota...  

Stephen also did a great job touching up some holes at Forsgate.
« Last Edit: September 29, 2009, 09:51:01 PM by Jay Flemma »
Mackenzie, MacRayBanks, Maxwell, Doak, Dye, Strantz. @JayGolfUSA, GNN Radio Host of Jay's Plays www.cybergolf.com/writerscorner

Mike Nuzzo

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Scotland Run/Stephen Kay
« Reply #11 on: September 29, 2009, 09:58:54 PM »
thanks.... good old Mad Mike

Matt had Stephen as a speaker at one of the winter gatherings of seasons past.
His line-up was quite strong for that one.
Turns out it was very important for me to have been there too.
Thank you Matt.
Cheers
Thinking of Bob, Rihc, Bill, George, Neil, Dr. Childs, & Tiger.

Michael Mimran

Re: Scotland Run/Stephen Kay
« Reply #12 on: September 29, 2009, 10:00:16 PM »
Architects Golf Course is another very solid Kay design.  He's arguably the most prolific golf architect in the NY/NJ area in the last 20 years.

Jay Flemma

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Scotland Run/Stephen Kay
« Reply #13 on: September 29, 2009, 10:00:35 PM »
thanks.... good old Mad Mike

Matt had Stephen as a speaker at one of the winter gatherings of seasons past.
His line-up was quite strong for that one.
Turns out it was very important for me to have been there too.
Thank you Matt.
Cheers

I think it's Red Mike, but yes, that's the one.  Red Mike because they tied him to a chair and lit a fire under him to tell where he hid the rustled cattle.  He didn't flinch.
Mackenzie, MacRayBanks, Maxwell, Doak, Dye, Strantz. @JayGolfUSA, GNN Radio Host of Jay's Plays www.cybergolf.com/writerscorner

Matt_Ward

Re: Scotland Run/Stephen Kay
« Reply #14 on: September 29, 2009, 11:22:53 PM »
Mike SM:

Good mention on Architect's Club in Lopatcong, NJ.

Likely you can get a spirited debate on what is Kay's best public design ... I've always believed the "remote" element has helped LND immensely. The totality of what you find at Architect's and Scotland Run are indeed better overall from a consistency standpoint in my mind.


Jay:

Good mention on what Stephen contributed to the re-vitalization of Forsgate / Banks Course. I was amazed on how well he did there -- especially the supber Biaritz 17th hole.

Jay, I think you will find Unionvale to be quite interesting -- you can even walk it for sure ! ;D

TEPaul:

Believe the hole you are vaguely remembering is the very well done dog-leg right risk / reward 16th hole which has a 275-yd carry over the corner or face a 2nd shot out of one of the largest bunkers on the course. Green is also protected nicely with a single solitary bunker guarding the left side of the putting surface.

Brad Fleischer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Scotland Run/Stephen Kay
« Reply #15 on: September 30, 2009, 01:01:09 AM »
One of my favorites in NJ. If it was closer and the rates were a little better I would play there more often. To bad it's over an hour away.

It was my first time back since two summers ago but I could swear they made some changes regarding bunkers and some new grassed areas .I wish I could remember the exact holes but I remember telling my friends this looks different a few times. Anyone know of any minor changes as I'm a little curious . 

Jay Flemma

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Scotland Run/Stephen Kay
« Reply #16 on: September 30, 2009, 04:09:22 PM »
Tom the Biarritz at 17 at Forsgate is unbelievable:

http://golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,40812.msg861666/
Mackenzie, MacRayBanks, Maxwell, Doak, Dye, Strantz. @JayGolfUSA, GNN Radio Host of Jay's Plays www.cybergolf.com/writerscorner

Matt_Ward

Re: Scotland Run/Stephen Kay
« Reply #17 on: September 30, 2009, 07:55:17 PM »
Jay:

You raise a powerful point about the Banks Course / Forsgate.

The restoration / upgrading of the course was simply overlooked by the major mags and frankly this site as well.

The collective par-3 holes there are simply awesome stuff -- with the 17th serving in the clean-up role.

Hats off to Kay and Chris Schiavone for taking Forsgate / Banks to a higher and more complete level.

Matt_Ward

Re: Scotland Run/Stephen Kay
« Reply #18 on: October 01, 2009, 12:50:48 PM »
I'd be very much interested in what people think of the work Kay did at McCullough's Emerald Links in Little Egg Harbor, NJ -- just 10-15 minutes from the AC Boardwalk.

The interesting thing about the course was the effort Kay put into the re-creation of the famed Lido hole -- the one Mackenzie made famous in his design contest submission. The hole at McCullough's doesn't have a major water backstop in the action but it still works quite well and frankly the course provides a number of interesting design elements with overseas linkages.

The only real notable letdowns in my mind are the two weak holes across the road -- #15 and #16 -- and the lame closing hole which would have been much better if the water on the right side were put in closer to the driving zone -- especially as short as the hole plays.

Have others played the course and what were your impressions ?

mike_malone

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Scotland Run/Stephen Kay
« Reply #19 on: October 01, 2009, 01:00:03 PM »
Matt,

   We play MEL in the dead of winter and find it fun. I even like the two holes across the street, particularly the postage stamp hole.

    I get a kick out of the Royal County Down #3 imitation. Although it doglegs left and RCD goes right and you have a seawage teatment facility on your right instead of the Irish Sea it still has the feel correct.
AKA Mayday

JeffTodd

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Scotland Run/Stephen Kay
« Reply #20 on: October 01, 2009, 01:22:36 PM »

The interesting thing about the course was the effort Kay put into the re-creation of the famed Lido hole -- the one Mackenzie made famous in his design contest submission. The hole at McCullough's doesn't have a major water backstop in the action but it still works quite well and frankly the course provides a number of interesting design elements with overseas linkages.


The Lido Hole is interesting and fun to play, but I really think it could benefit from just a little more tee elevation. The view of the scale, width, and angles of the hole are somewhat diluted when standing on the low to the ground teeing ground.

I agree that #15 across the street is a bad hole, and probably the weakest on the course. I don't mind #16, however, and think it's a fun little shot even though I'll concur that the setting is completely out of sync with the rest of the course.

Joe Bausch

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Scotland Run/Stephen Kay
« Reply #21 on: October 01, 2009, 02:16:03 PM »
I did a photo tour on MEGL about a year ago:

http://golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,36480.0/
@jwbausch (for new photo albums)
The site for the Cobb's Creek project:  https://cobbscreek.org/
Nearly all Delaware Valley golf courses in photo albums: Bausch Collection

Chris_Blakely

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Scotland Run/Stephen Kay
« Reply #22 on: October 01, 2009, 02:27:10 PM »
Stephen Kay's new desgins are not the problem, I have played most of the one's talked about and enjoyed them.  It is his renovation work at several of the Dev Emmet courses that I have played that is abismal - eliminating a lot of classic Emmet features.  That may be part of the reason he does not get as much talk.

Chris

Jay Flemma

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Scotland Run/Stephen Kay
« Reply #23 on: October 01, 2009, 05:59:37 PM »
Chris, what are your thoughts on Llanerch? Leewood and Hampshire?
Mackenzie, MacRayBanks, Maxwell, Doak, Dye, Strantz. @JayGolfUSA, GNN Radio Host of Jay's Plays www.cybergolf.com/writerscorner

Matt_Ward

Re: Scotland Run/Stephen Kay
« Reply #24 on: October 01, 2009, 10:15:28 PM »
Jeff T:

Good point on having a slightly elevated tee for the Lido hole. It would give the player more of a "look" at what they need to overcome. Right now -- those elements are somewhat obscured because of the tee pad being nearly flush with the existing terrain.


Mike M:

You need to help me out on how you see the two holes across the street being on par with those on the other side?

It's vanilla and chocolate for me.

I also think, as I said before, the finishing hole is rather blah because the proximity of the water is more cosmetic than strategic -- especially for those who opt to play down the right side.

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