[Rich Goodale]

Brent

I've played with you and you are a much better golfer than you imply.

Do you have no desire to improve, or are you consciously dooming yourself to a life of self-determined mediocrity?

If the latter, play friendly match play.  If the former, play competitive stroke play.  If you are somewhere in between, play somewhere within that continuum.  Regardless. enjoy!

Rich

[Mike McGuire]

Rich

When you write "competitive stroke play" do you mean without handicaps? I yes it would seem unless you are around a scratch it would be hard to find a game. Unless there are events for 4-8's 9-13's etc.

If you are a 5 and wish to compete against scratch players it is not really competitive. Especially if its more than one round. If you are competitive perhaps you are not a 5.

[Jason Topp]

Rich

When you write "competitive stroke play" do you mean without handicaps? I yes it would seem unless you are around a scratch it would be hard to find a game. Unless there are events for 4-8's 9-13's etc.

If you are a 5 and wish to compete against scratch players it is not really competitive. Especially if its more than one round. If you are competitive perhaps you are not a 5.

Mike:

If you look, there are more opportunities to compete at stroke play for all handicaps than you might think.  Many courses hold regular competitions for their golf associations.  I played around 8 rounds of stroke play competitive golf this year despite being an 8 handicap and could have doubled that figure if I would have played events at my former course.

For me stroke play is like going to the dentist.  I feel like I need to do it but it is usually painful. 

[TEPaul]

Rich:

I agree with you completely that if a golfer wants to take his game to a higher level it is competitive stroke play that does it best rather than match play.

However, I would think it has to be match play that is used by the vast majority of all golfers and recreational golfers when they play golf if they are interested in competing with and against their friends and such when they play golf and I can't imagine that will ever change in golf.

Kyle does ask some interesting questions about match play versus stroke play but the underlying point is the game of golf is probably very, very lucky to have two fairly different formats this way as it does.


Kyle:

Yes, handicapping, or at least the handicap system generally used obviously does have an effect on how golfers look at the game. Even if most golfers play match play golf they are playing it with something of a stroke play mentality if they are thinking of their handicap and posting their score because the handicap posting system is based on a single round score----eg the stroke play format.

We have talked about it a lot on this website some years ago. Today because of the sophistication of computerization there is a very decent way (potentially) of allowing the handicap posting system to get most golfers back into thinking more about the match play format and mentality and away from the stroke play mentality and that is to get them to post their scores via a hole by hole posting application because hole by hole IS THE match play format. If the application was set up properly it wouldn't take more than thirty seconds to do.

The additional benefit of a hole by hole posting system is that it could create immediate and total Equitable Stroke Control compliance by making it involuntary because the ESC formula could be imbedded right into the handicap posting system and application! 

[Will Haskett]

I'll agree with others on here that I actually enjoy the architecture of a golf course more in match play than in stroke because, I believe, match play offers more opportunities for variety.

At my club, when I play for score, it's the same routine on EVERY hole. I lay up on this hole, am aggressive on the next and attack on holes where birdie is more likely. When playing for a score, you are avoiding the big numbers and managing your round (unless you are on a very easy golf course). It's almost robotic on a course you are familiar with.

In match play, depending on the circumstances (down, up, even, playing against somebody who hits it long, or putts poorly), you make different decisions. You recognize that blowing up on a hole is only going to cost you 1 point (1 hole), so you become more aggressive and explore the course to find ways to make a ton of birdies and put the pressure on your opponent.

I have never looked more thoroughly at the potential of my golf course more than when I am in match play. I see the whole layout, unlike in stroke play where I am calculating my way around the course to find the "safe" spots.

[tlavin]

The best thing about matchplay is the opponent is stood next to you.  None of this "old man par" rubbish - you can watch the guy(s) you need to beat.  That is sport at its best. 

Matchplay is quicker.

I like how in matchplay the subtleties of how the other guy plays can effect how you play.  Kyle seems to think this is a weakness, but I disagree.  Because of the other guy's play (either good or bad), you can be dragged out of comfort zone and challenged to play a course or at least some shots differently than you may want to.  This can present the course in an entirely different light.

I believe that for a well designed course it doesn't matter what game you play on her, but I also think some courses have been dumbed down because of the medal play. 

The only reason to use medal play is when the field all competes at once and even in this case, stableford was invented to overcome the slow play issues and card killing aspects of medal play.   

In match play, there is no need to trick up courses to"protect par".

Ciao

Simple, sublime and spot on!

[Adam Clayman]

Stroke play massages a game mind, while Match play, the sport.

The loss of the stymie proves that.
 

I can see how anyone in the business of growing turf, trying to present the best conditions possible, would be pre-disposed to not getting Match Play.

[Brent Hutto]

Brent

I've played with you and you are a much better golfer than you imply.

Do you have no desire to improve, or are you consciously dooming yourself to a life of self-determined mediocrity?

If the latter, play friendly match play.  If the former, play competitive stroke play.  If you are somewhere in between, play somewhere within that continuum.  Regardless. enjoy!

Rich

Thanks for that, Rich. But over the past year or so I have in fact given up on dreaming of improvement in my game. Haven't seen my golf teacher (other than socially) since late 2008. And what has happened during that time, for reasons I can not fathom, is that I'm making more pars and birdies than ever in my life while also making more worse-than-double-bogey numbers than I have in nearly a decade.

With roughly the same Handicap Index as today I used to make a ton of bogeys, maybe 12-13 per round at my home course. A couple pars, a couple doubles, maybe one "other" and almost never a birdie. My lifetime average is probably 1 birdie per 10-15 rounds played. Since I quit practicing and trying to improve (and mostly quit keeping scorecards) my average is nearly 1 birdie per 27 holes and almost every round has a four or five hole stretch of even par or better. Yet I'm in my pocket at least three times in virtually every round I play.

This game is more fun than my old game but it is pretty incompatible with a scorecard, or at least with strictly by-the-Rules medal play. But for my occasional match-play friendlies and my usual weekend "points" game (pseudo-Stableford) I'm having a blast. None the less I do get occasional criticism from people at my club who find it offensive that I pick up so often. Some people are so mindful of what they suppose are the requirements of the USGA Handicap System that picking up after five or six strokes several times in a round and writing down a double or triple bogey strikes them as "cheating".

I just wish I had the nerve to bail out of the Handicap System all together but unfortunately it's a requirement of playing in my usual Saturday and Sunday games. Hence my frustration. In those games, any score worse than bogey on a hole counts zero points no matter what. Yet a few self appointed hard-ass Handicap Cops think I ought to be wasting everyone's time grinding out at least my ESC limit (either 8 or 7, depending) before picking up. What a mess!

[Mike McGuire]

Our club championship this year might make a good case study. It was conducted at medal play - 54 holes. In the past it has been match play.

We have (1) scratch, (1)  2, a couple 3-4's, a few more 5's or so and then more six's sevens etc.

Bonus points for who won

If your not a four or less what is the incentive to commit to 3 rounds  filling up the field in this scenario? What are the odds a 5 or higher  beating  a scratch and a two over 54 holes?

In match play everyone has a chance to knock out the one or two and theoretically more players have a chance to win- therefore more would sign up.

[Sean Eidson]

My golf game is roughly equivalent to Brent’s and I am very sympathetic to the desire not to have others watch me grind out a quadruple bogey or worse.

I have had too many rounds of golf RUINED by medal play for me to ever consider playing more than 2-3 times per year.  They were ruined by taking too long when people go into the full windup of a pre-shot routine for a 3 foot putt, they were ruined by me making such a large number that I stopped caring, they were ruined by lipping out a 2 foot putt that would have been conceded, etc…  I had to "break up" with a golf buddy because he insisted on playing stroke play and it annoyed me so much.

My life is just too short to not have fun playing the game and I find that match play gives me the best chance to enjoy the course and enjoy my playing partners.  The stakes are higher when playing outside a regular game, e.g. on a golf trip where you’re experiencing a new course for the first time.  Who wants to be grinding out a 9 because you didn’t know there was a lake behind that hill?

One other angle here, is that you can play a match according to the rules and not have to make compromises like “double par” or “ESC max” or allow conceded putts in order to prevent the downsides of stroke play.

On the topic of wanting to improve… I desperately want to improve, but in the holistic sense. I want to improve the way I score, the way I react to adversity, the way I understand the course, the way I relate to my playing partners, etc.  I find it very difficult to do that when playing stroke play and opening triple-triple-triple.

[Matt_Cohn]

The word 'fair' has a range of meanings. Same for all is one, but another meaning is that the challenge is not arbitrary.

A flag placed on a peak on a green with a 45 degree fall off a foot away from it in all directions is the same for all, but few would consider it fair.

Why is this unfair on a real golf course but not on a miniature golf course?   

[Jud_T]

My former club's big member-guest was a two day event, where the first day was net better ball of pairs at 90% and the second day was both balls at 100%.  While they pulled out all the stops for the event, it got to be such a grind that I stopped participating the past few years.  Bottom line-match play is a better game...If it weren't for the certainty of television finishing times and the participation of the biggest-drawing players, I think we'd see a lot more match play events on the tour as well.  Would that the PGA championship reverted back to match play! Then it would be a great event instead of the anticlimactic end to a major championship season.  But god forbid Tiger got eliminated in an early round.  Nobody would be able to sell fast food, crap cars or crap beer!!! Seriously, my son has started playing a bunch of junior tournaments, which are all contested at stroke play.  He's become so focused on his gross score, that he simply can't enjoy himself if he's having an off day, even in a casual round.  I've taken to hiding the scorecard from him and focusing on our match till the round is over.  Now we're even producing 10 year old entrants in the scorecard and pencil set!!!

[James Boon]

One of the consistent undercurrents of the GCA.com ideology is that of the supposed superiority and purity of match play as opposed to medal play - especially as it pertains to golf architecture.

Kyle,

Reading your question again got me thinking. Maybe there is some post rationalisation in the GCA.com ideology of the superiority of matchplay based upon where we see top pros and amateurs playing?

The matchplay Walker Cup (ignore the Ryder Cup as its too commercial these days) is played at courses like NGLA or Pine Valley or Royal County Down where we have never had a chance to see the top pros play. By taking a top matchplay event to courses considered so highly this perhaps makes matchplay good in the eyes of us on here, where as every week the tours around the world take their strokeplay events to TPC wherever, or some new 7 and a half thousand yarder for which there is no love here?

Just a thought?

Cheers,

James

[Jud_T]

How many good to great courses are getting ruined in the rush to protect stroke play par for the best tour players? Medinah, augusta, torrey pines and now possibly erin hills come to mind. 
Every membership wants their course to be seen as a tough test.  I wonder if they'd care if
Tiger beat Phil 9 + 8 instead of shooting 18 under par?!

[Giles Payne]

Having played a number of other competitive sports where the emphasis is very much on your skill versus an opponents before coming to golf, when I started to play I found that match play was a far more natural format than stroke play. I think that this is probably how the game actually started, before par was even thought about. I still find it a far more compelling game.

Handicaps are there to enable two golfers of varying abilities to play each other with each having a fairly equal chance of winning the game. This is one of the joys of golf as you can see and appreciate at first hand the skill of a great player (such as playing with Joe Fairey or Ian Dixon at BUDA). If this were to happen on a soccer, rugby or hockey pitch it would lead to a pointless match and embarrassing outcome. Unfortunately, handicaps are calculated in reference to your stroke play rounds and therefore stroke play becomes a necessity if there are going to be fair matches (on either basis) between golfers of varying ability.

However, there is also a problem with translating handicaps between the two systems. I am not a very committed stroke play golfer and do not enjoy playing the type of safe and conservative round of golf that the format requires. I find that mistakes regularly lead to doubles rather than single bogeys and this has the obvious effects on my handicap. There have been extensive discussions on the BUDA threads regarding this phenomenon and I am possibly one of the worse cases (just ask Scott Warren about a recent BUDA match!!)

I think that stroke play encourages you to play in a vacuum with and can reduce your interaction with your playing partners (and in the worst cases can lead to very selfish golfers who are only interested in how they are doing). I feel that this diminishes the game. It becomes almost like playing darts against yourself. Surely the challenge, as other people have said, is feeling the pressure and testing your skill when you have to make a shot rather than calculating the odds of potential failure.

I also think that Jud makes a very good case regarding the ruination of great courses that would still be relevant to your non professional golfer.

[Mark_Rowlinson]

You may think that Britain is obsessed with matchplay. Largely, it isn't. Look at the annual diary of events at most British clubs and there will be an almost weekly diet of medals, Stablefords, better-ball Stablefords, Shotguns and so on. There is probably one men's knockout competition, one for the ladies, a mixed knockout and ladies' and men's foursome knock-outs. Social golf will almost invariably be some kind of matchplay with rules decided by those involved in the match. That will not change.

But if you look at the new CONGU rules and regulations about handicaps we are all going to have to play in at least three 'qualifying' competitions each year to retain an 'active' handicap. We'll all have to submit these three cards in appropriate stroke play or Stableford competitions to enable us to play in any of the club knock-out events or any of the tournaments which are described as 'board' competitions, that is those which result in the winner's name being recorded on the honours boards.

Included in the honours boards at my local club is the Turner Trophy for a family combination: father/son, mother/son, grandmother/grandson. It's jolly good fun. Imagine the devastating effect of the new CONGU rules on this. Three couples will enter....

[Ulrich Mayring]

There's one thing the Yanks have gotten right and we're all wrong!

The USGA handicapping rules are far superior to CONGU or EGA. Basically they say that any round you play under the rules of golf (i. e. no scramble or alternate shot) counts for your handicap. If you pick up on a hole, add the number of strokes you would most likely have taken. You can easily submit matchplay rounds for handicapping purposes, you can easily submit 15 holes you played by yourself before it got dark (just add what you "normally" would have scored on the remaining holes).

Any golfer would be able to keep a sensible handicap that way. Does it open the door for cheating? I guess it does, but the rules of golf were not made for people like that. It's a game for gentlemen and ladies.

Am I going to play a 6+ hour tournament round and pay half a greenfee's worth of entry fee at my own club just so I can submit something for handicapping purposes? When most likely I am still the same old wretched player I have always been and my current handicap is just fine as it is?

Coming back to the topic, I think from a competetive point of view match play is inherently superior to stroke play, because I will be "in it" much more often. In a stroke play event I'm up against the whole field and to do anything I have to play my absolute best. And that happens maybe twice a year, so in stroke play I will on average be somewhere in the middle and not have much of a contest. In match play I have just one opponent. So even when I'm not playing my best, there is a very good chance my opponent isn't either and we can have a great match.

Ulrich

[Eric_Terhorst]

There's one thing the Yanks have gotten right and we're all wrong!

The USGA handicapping rules are far superior to CONGU or EGA. Basically they say that any round you play under the rules of golf (i. e. no scramble or alternate shot) counts for your handicap. If you pick up on a hole, add the number of strokes you would most likely have taken. You can easily submit matchplay rounds for handicapping purposes, you can easily submit 15 holes you played by yourself before it got dark (just add what you "normally" would have scored on the remaining holes).

Ulrich, I would argue that the US handicapping system, where EVERYONE plays EVERY HOLE so they can post their infernal score (or find themselves afoul of the handicapping czar) is a contributor to slow play over here.  Be careful what you wish for.

Mike McGuire,

Thanks for enriching us with those Low quotes.

Rich Goodale,

Did it occur to you that I might wish to improve so I can enjoy beating you...in match play...at Dornoch?  In fact, I wish to beat your brains out while conceding several putts...few things would make me happier 

Kyle,
your initial comments suggest you have a superior attitude about stroke play...but perhaps I'm too sensitive.   I can't improve on the Low quotes, but I urge you to reread the chapter called "Match vs. Medal" pg. 255 of my copy of  The Spirit of St. Andrews.   Among other gems, Mackenzie says "If too much attention were paid to the vitriolic outbursts of unsuccessful competitors in medal rounds, there would not be a first class hole left in golf."

[Kyle Harris]

All the criticisms of stroke play seem to be misdirected criticisms that are more appropriately indictments of the person, not the format.

[Jim_Kennedy]

Kyle,
It's not superior, it just accomodates more playing styles, is more conducive to risk taking, and requires more strategy on the part of the golfer as he has to play an opponent and the course at the same time.

[Mark Pearce]

Ulrich,

I don't agree with you that the USGA handicapping system is better than CONGU.  Quite the opposite in fact.  I like that scores for handicapping are made in competition under CONGU, though appreciate that there are far fewer medals etc. at US clubs.

Mark,

I understood that it was up to the committee of each club to decide which of its competitions were not open to players with inactive handicaps.  The Turner Trophy should be safe.  What the change will do is prevent individuals such as the 15 handicapper who got to my club's matchplay knock-out final last year weaving their magic.  I understand that one of his defeated opponents, a league team player, playing off scratch, commenetd that he had rarely been regularly outdriven by a 15 handicapper, much less frequently by one who could at will shape 280 yard drives left to right or right to left and find 13 of 14 fairways.  Fortunatley and to the delight of the entire club he lost in the final.

[Ulrich Mayring]

Ulrich, I would argue that the US handicapping system, where EVERYONE plays EVERY HOLE so they can post their infernal score (or find themselves afoul of the handicapping czar) is a contributor to slow play over here.

Well, the USGA system could be further improved by being based on Stableford like we are here. Then you could easily X a hole. But that would be an optimisation, the main point is that in the USGA system many more rounds per golfer count toward their handicap than in other systems.

Mark, IMHO any handicapping system, where only a fraction of the rounds I play under the rules of golf count towards my handicap is rubbish. I don't like 6+ hour rounds and entry fees worth half a greenfee, so I don't play club tournaments. But I do play competetive golf and pray tell, why shouldn't my good performances at BUDA lower my handicap?

After all, my stroke play handicap was deemed relevant enough to be applied in match play. So why are match play results deemed not relevant to apply towards my handicap?

Ulrich

[Sean_A]

Merry-go-rounding once again.  While I don't care how other countries determine their handicaps, I find it weird how scores can be counted for handicap purposes when:

1. The ball ends up in pocket before being holed.  Afterall, this is part of what makes medal play the gruelling test that it is -there is no quarter.

2.The score isn't attested.  This s far more important than many on here give it credit for.   

3. Where I keep my handicap, the course rating on the day isn't calculated for goof off golf. 

Finally, in my experience, the GB&I caps are more accurate than those from other countries - especially in the single digit area.

No Ulrich, you can have the made up scores and grinding out putts that have no meaning for a match.  I will gladly sick to CONGU with all its faults.

Ciao

[Mark Pearce]

Ulrich,

The 6 hour rounds and big entry fees are a function of your club not the CONGU system.  I shall be playing in my club's October Spoon this weekend.  If it takes more than 3 1/2 hours for my three ball to get round I shall be surprised and annoyed.  The competition will cost me £2 to enter the sweep, which is optional.

I'm with Sean, I can't trust a handicap system with unattested scores allowed.

[Ulrich Mayring]

Going with the notion that "Handicap" is merely a "Stroke Play Handicap", then doesn't it logically follow to never use it for handicapping match play or foursomes?

I'm very far from being a handicapping expert, it seems just pure logic to me: if the handicap can be translated from stroke to match play, why can't results translate back from match to stroke play?

Mark: I envy you, your club apparently works better than mine (and most other German clubs). However, under the USGA system we both could keep sensible handicaps, as we wouldn't depend so much on our clubs

I don't think systems can guarantee correct handicaps. All they can do is enable players to keep a correct handicap. Those who want to cheat can do so in any system.

Ulrich

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