Rate Their Courses: Faz vs Dye

[Jim Colton]

The 'best of fazio' and 'doak versus coore/crenshaw' threads got me thinking: how about rating the courses you've played between Pete Dye and Tom Fazio, two titans of the modern era. No ties, just list em out with an brief explanation if necessary.

1. Blackwolf Run River
2. Whistling Straits
3. World Woods Pine Barrens
4. The Ocean Course
5. TPC Sawgrass
6. BWR Meadow Valleys
7. Whistling Straits - Irish
8. World Woods Rolling Oaks

[astavrides]

14   Whistling Straits (Straits)      Pete Dye
15   harbor town      pete dye
16   Blackwolf Run (River)      pete dye
18   kiawah      pete dye
27   pete dye golf club      pete dye
34   Galloway National      t. fazio
42   PGA West-Stadium      pete dye
47   red sky ranch-fazio      t. fazio
53   Whistling Straits (Irish)      Pete Dye
63   Bulle Rock      pete dye
67   World Woods-Pine Barrens      T. Fazio
68   Primm Valley-Lakes      T. Fazio
73   avalon lakes      pete dye
89   Pelican Hill-South      T. Fazio
90   Pelican Hill-North      T. Fazio
91   Dancing Rabbit (Azeleas)      T. Fazio, Pate
107   riverdale dunes      pete dye
112   kearney hill      pete and pb dye
115   pine hill      T. Fazio
120   Ocean Trails (before redesign)      pete dye
124   Lost Canyons-Sky      pete dye
138   nemacolin - mystic rock      pete dye
139   paiute - wolf      pete dye
142   ventana canyon (mountain)      T. Fazio
146   Lost Canyons-Shadow      pete dye
153   kingsmill (river)      pete dye
158   hartefeld national      T. Fazio
165   Greyhawk- Raptor      T. Fazio
174   La Quinta-Mountain      pete dye
184   rum pointe      pete dye and p.b. dye
222   Fowler's Mill      pete dye
268   Meadows del Mar      T. Fazio
274   Primm Valley-Desert      T. Fazio
354   Paiute-Snow Mtn.      pete dye
355   Paiute-Sun Mtn.      pete dye
358   legacy at alaqua lakes      T. Fazio
360   carmel valley ranch      pete dye
363   Wintonbury Hills      pete dye
364   Mission Hills Resort      pete dye
418   Oak Creek       T. Fazio
422   Carlton Oaks      pete dye
437   copper creek      pete dye, perry dye
467   ASU- Karsten      pete dye
468   Moreno Valley      pete dye
470   la quinta dunes      pete dye

(numbers are overall rankings out of all the courses I've played)

[Tim Bert]

Jim - I haven't played enough Fazio to weigh in here but I guess odds are that I'd prefer his work to Dye's given where all the Dye courses finished in the assignment I completed for you.

Do you think it is possible that Fazio actually designed anything worse than the River???

[Andy Troeger]

When I looked at this thread the first thing that came to mind was that Pete Dye would have both the top and the bottom of the list and Fazio's courses would be in the middle--that is born out very much by astavrides list. Obviously it would depend on which courses you've played from each one of them--some are better than others. The best I've played from Pete Dye would be The Golf Club (#3 overall for me), Blackwolf Run River (#4), and TPC Sawgrass (#11). The best Fazio's are Alotian Club (#5) and Victoria National (#14).

I can't think that I've played a "bad" Fazio out of 13 played--they'd all easily make the top half of courses played--hence I don't really want to name the one that comes in last. The weakest Pete Dye course I've played isn't all that terrible either, but at least its in the bottom half of places I've seen and would be Purdue Kampen. Granted, a lot of people like that one quite a bit more than I do.

[Cory Lewis]

Alright, I'll give it a shot, please excuse the spacing as it's copied from excel:


Whistling Straits (Straits)         Dye
Pete Dye Golf Club         Dye
TPC at Sawgrass         Dye
Kiawah Island (Ocean)         Dye
Victoria National         Fazio
Long Cove         Dye
Trump National Bedminster(Old)         Fazio
Harbour Town         Dye
Sea Island (Seaside)         Fazio
Diamond Creek         Fazio
Crooked Stick         Dye
Briggs Ranch         Fazio
Blackwolf Run (River)         Dye
Forest Creek (North)         Fazio
Conway Farms         Fazio
Carlton Woods (Fazio)         Fazio
Caves Valley         Fazio
The Ridge at Back Brook         Fazio
French Lick (Pete Dye)         Dye
Forest Creek (South)         Fazio
World Woods (Rolling Oaks)         Fazio
Colleton River (Dye)         Dye
Galloway National         Fazio
Greenbrier Sporting Club         Fazio
Old North State Club         Fazio
Bulle Rock         Dye
Belfair (West)         Fazio
World Woods (Pine Barrens)         Fazio
Lowes Island (Island)         Fazio
Brickyard Crossing         Dye
Whistling Straits (Irish)         Dye
Barefoot (Dye)         Dye
Blackwolf Run (Meadow Valleys)         Dye
Pinehurst C.C.(No.4)         Fazio
Southern Hills Plantation         Dye
Two Rivers         Fazio
Pinehurst C.C.(No.         Fazio
Rum Pointe         Dye
Barefoot (Fazio)         Fazio
River Creek         Fazio
Kingsmill (River)         Dye
Piedmont Club         Fazio
Hartefeld National         Fazio
Independence         Fazio
Kiawah Island (Osprey Point)         Fazio
The Fort         Dye
Pine Hill         Fazio
Pinehurst C.C.(No.6)         Fazio
UNC Finley Golf Course         Fazio

[Damon Groves]

This one is hard for me because I don't like either one's courses. Both have their visual stimulation with Fazio's being very picturesque and Dye's simply head scratching. However, at least Dye has some strategic element (albiet he goes overboard) to his courses and deserves credit for bringing golf course architecture out of the duldrums. Fazio simply builds visually beautiful courses with little if any strategic element and builds courses that are impossible to maintain in a cost effective manner.

[Jim Colton]

Gratuitous bump as the Engh/Strantz one has generated some traction...

[Rob Rigg]

Guys - Nice Work - Care to throw some Walkability Ratings next to them (if you have not done so already)

[PCCraig]

The 'best of fazio' and 'doak versus coore/crenshaw' threads got me thinking: how about rating the courses you've played between Pete Dye and Tom Fazio, two titans of the modern era. No ties, just list em out with an brief explanation if necessary.

1. Blackwolf Run River
2. Whistling Straits
3. World Woods Pine Barrens
4. The Ocean Course
5. TPC Sawgrass
6. BWR Meadow Valleys
7. Whistling Straits - Irish
8. World Woods Rolling Oaks

World Woods over the Ocean Course?

[PCCraig]

Also worth adding in there for Pete is Crooked Stick..which IMO is still in his top 5;

TOC
BWR (Champ Course)
WS
The Golf Club
Crooked Stick
TPC - Sawgrass

French Lick?

[J Sadowsky]

Surprised by the lack of love for Teeth of the Dog.

[Jud_T]

ok-off the top of my head-

1.   Whistling Straights (Straights)
2.   Forsest Creek (North)
3.   Blackwolf Run (River)
4.   Forest Creek (South)
5.   The Glen Club
6.   Conway Farms
7.   TPC Myrtle Beach
8.   Blackwolf Run (Meadow)
9.   Pauite Golf Club
10. Pinehurst #4
11. Pinehurst #8
12. Whistling Straights (Irish)
13. Barefoot Fazio
14. PGA Golf Club
15. Ruffled Feathers

interesting thread. if you'd asked me straight out who i preferred i'd have said clearly Dye.  However, this list gives me pause.  Having said that, it's somewhat skewed by the fact that I've played several private Fazio courses, but no private Dye courses.  I think Fazio churns out a solid professional product but there's a sameness to his courses that you don't get with Pete.  However, the work Fazio did at the Glen club, turning an airfield into a solid track that looks like it's been there forever is amazing.  He just seems like more of a signiture architect than Pete, who seems to relish taking chances more....

[Chris_Clouser]

Pat,

From what little I did see of French Lick last year before it opened, if it is anywhere near Pete Dye's top 10 then his career isn't as noteworthy as everyone thinks. 

Surprised no one ever mentioned The Honors Course on this thread.

[Ron Csigo]

Here goes:

TPC at Sawgrass - Dye
Shadow Creek - Fazio
Galloway National - Fazio
World Woods (Pine Barrens) - Fazio
Bulle Rock - Dye
Kingsmill (River) - Dye
Pine Hill - Fazio
Pinehurst C.C.(No.4) - Fazio
Primm Valley Lakes - Fazio
Primm Valley Desert - Fazio
Barefoot - Fazio       
Barefoot - Dye
Paiute Wolf - Dye
Paiute Sun Mountain - Dye

[Jeff_Brauer]

Surprised no one ever mentioned The Honors Course on this thread.

or the Golf Club.....

I give Pete the edge, personally, although the more I see Fazio, the more impressed I am by how he never seems to make a big mistake, and how he handles all the details.  Lastly, although many here wouldn't admit it, I see a lot of experimentation in Fazio's works, particularly in green design concepts.  His slopes can be positively Doakian.  He puts little pin areas in spots I would never consider, like the reverse slope green (15?) at Flint Hills and the 6th green at Glen Club, with its front pin elevated a bit from the rest of the green.

I will say that both have so many damn courses out there that repitition is a problem. (A problem I wish I had!)

Among all the great Dye coruses, I will also perversely note that the worst of his I saw was the course at Disney, whereas the Faz course was quite good. It appeared to me that he was instructed (for once) to do his style, but soften it for resort play and it just didn't work, whereas the Faz style is naturally perfect for that kind of course.

I was also not a fan of Moreno Valley by Dye.  Its funny, but given he had some topo, the features didn't seem to work as well there for me as they do when he creates it on flat ground.

[Matt_Ward]

The difficulty in mixing / matching what Dye has done versus TF is tied to a large degree by the sheer volume of work the latter has done and, if I might add, the overall level of quality seen with so many of his most recent efforts.

For me the quintessential Dye layouts came towards the very beginning of his career -- Harbour Town, Teeth of the Dog, Crooked Stick, The Golf Club plus a few that came a few years later - TPC / Sawgrass, The Ocean Course at Kiawah, The Honors Club. Oak Tree, etc, etc.

I am not a fan of Whistling Straits because it doesn't really advance the ball on what Pete did previously. Some, no doubt, will take issue with that. I also have to wonder what Pete was thinking when Pound Ridge in Westchester County was created -- can playability be totally jettisoned as it is at that layout?

Tom Fazio, started early on after going solo away from his Uncle George -- with plenty of places that looked really good but often times were surface level stuff -- good examples being Vintage Club,  I do agree with Jeff B that the TF design team has come on strongly with a host of really outstanding courses such as Karsten Creek, Galloway National, Victoria National, Glenwild, etc, etc.

I read what Jug mentioned and I take the opposite position -- so much of what is claimed to be Pete's handiwork is often a cut'n paste of what I have played previously. I just have to wonder is Pete really the spearhead or simply the brand name that is being applied -- reminds me of what RTJ used to have happen when Roger Rulewich really was the nuts'n bolts guy when Trent was at the end of his career.

Plenty of TF courses I have played in recent times -- say the last 10 years or so -- are no longer just eye-candy predictable and ho-hum efforts. There's plenty coming forward that is quite good and even worthy of national acclaim.

From the standpoint of batting averages -- TF is involved with a slew of projects and thereby has his name out there far more than what you see with Pete who doesn't have the mega entourage you get with Team Fazio. The early work from Dye clearly re-shaped the nature of design and if one were to measure the success of the people who formerly were with Dye it does provide a great testament to the man's influence in the type of work being produced by those who formerly worked for him.

Tom Fazio, has rightly been villified when attempting to place his stamp on classic courses and in the process cause more harm than good -- see Inverness, Oak Hill / East, etc, etc. To his credit though -- the recent top tier products are very, very good and while they won't satisfy those who are fans of a preferred select few designers -- I do believe Fazio needs to receive a clear reassessment from what he did early on and what he is fully capable of when personally engaged.

[mark chalfant]

Top ten are in order

Golf Club, Ohio  Dye
Galloway  Fazio
Oak Tree  Dye
WW Pine Barrens Fazio
Kiawah  Dye

Trump NJ   Fazio
Blackwolf River   Dye
Black Diamond   Fazio
Firethorn, NE    Dye
Rolling Oaks   Fazio




Wintonbury Hills   Dye
Meadow Valleys   Dye
Hudson National   Fazio
Pelican Hill North  Fazio
Wabeek, MI   Dye
Kingsmill  Dye
World Woods Short   Fazio
Carmel  Valley  Dye
St. Michaels  Maryland  Dye

[David_Madison]

Top 15 in order:

Mountaintop           Fazio
Wade Hampton       Fazio
Ocean Course          Dye
TPC Sawgrass         Dye
Harbour Town         Dye
Long Cove              Dye
Shadow Creek         Dye
World Woods (PB)   Fazio
Eagle Point             Fazio
Lake Nona              Fazio
Diamond Creek        Fazio
Black Diamond        Fazio
Old Marsh               Dye
Hudson National      Fazio

Fazio seems to get the better sites and demands the biggest budgets, whereas Dye turns marshy or otherwise impossible pieces of land into excellent courses. My favorite Fazio courses are the ones where I believe he personally spent the most time doing, whereas much of his less notable stuff was primarily the product of his staff (UNC Finley being the worst/best example I can think of). No such thing with Dye. Every one of his courses has his personal touch.

[Jeff_Brauer]

David,

It would be interesting to see the travel schedules to see if the facts backed up your opinion.  My impression is that for the last decade or so, both men relied heavily on staff.  They simply had too much work going on.  Faz publicly stated that he wouldn't travel much, especially west of the Mississippi until his kids were grown.  Pete has been battling cancer.

I will say that I can personally see which Faz associate seems to have taken the lead on courses.  Some of his courses have much more frilly bunkers, others quite plain, which I personally attribute to different staff members based on the few courses where I know one or the other showed up.

[Anthony Gray]

Surprised by the lack of love for Teeth of the Dog.

  In the TOP 100 lists Teeth of the Dog is Pete Dye's top ranked course historically.

  Anthony

[David_Madison]

Jeff,

I don't have any hard facts to back this up, but my sense is that much of Fazio's best stuff was when he didn't have as much work and therefore did more of the detail himself. I just have to believe that he did more hands-on work at Wade Hampton, World Woods, and Shadow Creek. Mountaintop is very recent and my favorite. He lives nearby in Lake Toxaway and was there often, something I learned from their GM. Those four courses don't have the "stamped out" look that I've seen at many of his others that likely were driven by his staff.

I agree with you that you can see differences in his courses depending upon which staff members are leading the project (or doing the shaping). The best example I can think of is Emerald Dunes in West Palm Beach. You can practically tell hole by hole which shaper was doing the work, especially by looking at the sand bunkers.

All of the Dye courses I listed were a bit older as well and from what I understand done mroe personally by Pete (and Alice). The only more recent Dye course I've played is Bulle Rock, which I liked a lot but thought way too difficult (and perhaps discouraging to any mid or high handicapper to get a lot of multiple plays) for a public course.

[Bart Bradley]

Jeff,

I don't have any hard facts to back this up, but my sense is that much of Fazio's best stuff was when he didn't have as much work and therefore did more of the detail himself. I just have to believe that he did more hands-on work at Wade Hampton, World Woods, and Shadow Creek. Mountaintop is very recent and my favorite. He lives nearby in Lake Toxaway and was there often, something I learned from their GM. Those four courses don't have the "stamped out" look that I've seen at many of his others that likely were driven by his staff.

David:

How would you explain Champion Hills then?  Have you seen it?  They advertise this as his "home course"...so, surely, he must have spent some time there...I don't believe it remotely approaches his best stuff.

Bart

[David_Madison]

Bart,

Good question, as Fazio has his offices in Hendersonville and lived in the area for many years. I've played the course a couple of times, including once this past July. You are right in that it does not match up with his best "championship" work, but I don't think that was the goal here. I think that Champion Hills is excellent for its purpose, an active retirement residential community. He wasn't trying to do another Wade Hampton (and I wouldn't be surprised if he had a substantially smaller budget for Champion Hills as well.) I'd also imagine that it wasn't the easiest site of sites to build on, and there had to be trade-offs with the residential element of the community. It's a fun, beautiful course that's playable for pretty much any level of player, with sufficient challenge to interest their best players. The greens complexes are not simple by any means, and I'd guess that with challenging cupping and some speed they'd be plenty vexing. Typically the course plays longer than its stated yardage because of the prevailing soft conditions, so for anyone carrying the ball 240 or less, and I'd guess that's pretty much 98%+ of those teeing it up there, its plenty to handle.

[Jason Topp]

Somewhat tough to rate because they are opposites.

Fazio - player friendly, softer contours, player is guided through the course

Dye - Harsh contours, makes the player uncomfortable, way to play the hole is often unclear

I really liked my first Fazio courses in part because I had been beaten up by Dye.  After learning that Dye courses look much tougher than they play, I favor them over Fazio courses as tests of golf.  I generally prefer the look of Fazio courses.



The Ocean Course
TPC Sawgrass
Big Fish
Shadow Creek
Harbor Town
Estancia
Stadium Course PGA West
Ventana Canyon - Mountain
Des Moines Country Club – Senior Open 18
Blackwolf Run – Meadows Valley Course
Wolf Course – Paiute canyon
World Woods Pine Barrens
Ventana Canyon - Canyon
Primm Valley - Lakes
Fazio Course at Kiawah
ASU Karsten