Is Muirfield Village underrated?

[Joel Zuckerman]

I  was among a very small group of visiting writers who had the pleasure of the company of Jack Nicklaus during breakfast last Friday in the clubhouse at Muirfield Village in Dublin, Ohio.

He touched on a variety of golf-related subjects during an hour-long meet-and-greet, but the one theme he returned to repeatedly was his opinion that Muirfield Village gets short shrift in terms of the magazine course ratings.  He said more than once that on a shot-by-shot and hole-by-hole basis, he thinks the GC compares favorably with any classic venue in the USA--he mentioned Merion, Augusta National, Oakmont, Cypress Point and Pebble Beach,  then admitting he hasn't been to Pine Valley in almost 50 years!

He theroizes that the club's location in greater Columbus skews the rankings negatively, and if the same GC was in California, Long Island or South Florida, it would be a Top 5 or Top 10 course, not down towards the middle 30s.

Having played the course twice last week, and four times overall, I'm thinking it is a superb venue--not just the GC, and it's superior conditioning, but the entire club experience---food, service, etc.  Is the Golden Bear correct in his assessment?  Is the perceived lack of ranking status due to the GC's relative youth?  Lack of Major pedigree?  OR--Is he overly biased towards his hometown labor of love?  Curious as to the informed opinions of those who care to offer them.

[Ian Andrew]

I like Muirfield Village - but it's a step below all of those.

If I were going to pick one area where it comes up short it would be repetition. I find there are many green sites and many holes that are very similar to previous holes. I find the shots required – since often there are no alternatives – are very similar throughout the round. I like the place a lot – one of my favourite modern courses – but philosophically I can’t even put it in the conversation with the courses he mentioned.

[JESII]

Joel,

I'm not a rater nor highly sophisticated at this "List" position stuff, but I think the greens at Muirfield are too flat for it to be right up in the top tier.

How great would it be if it were in merely mediocre condition?

[J_ Crisham]

Joel,  My response to your question is a question. If you had a final round in your life to play from these courses: MPCC, Merion,CPC,ANGC,Pebble,Oakmont, or MV, would it be Muirfield Village? Can't believe that many would pick Muirfield. I can probably pick at least 25 courses ahead of it and probably 3 in just the state of Ohio-Camargo, Scioto, and The Golf Club just to mention a few. Don't misunderstand me ,Muirfield Village is a fine track but it certainly pales in comparison to those mentioned above.
                                                                                                    Jack

[Tommy Williamsen]

I find it interesting that he would even bring the subject of rankings up, because he thinks they are rubbish and that panelists are not qualified to assess courses.  Murifield Village had been ranked in the top ten on GD's about fifteen years ago or so. 
I have played the course five times and think that it is indeed a wonderful course.  His routing is pretty interesting.  It may havae more downhill tee shots of any course I have played.  It is playable for any player and obviously tests the pros.  The greens have great movement and the green sites are interesting and test the short game.  Is it underrated, I don't think so.  There are even courses in Columbus I would play before I'd play MV.

[Brian Brady]

Agree with the previous two posters, I think I'd play the Golf Club/Camargo on a daily basis before MV, I'm not trying to take anything away from it, the course is always in tremendous condition.  Even though it's not on the top of my list, it would be a great place to call home.

But I wonder, if you took Jack away from MV, would it just become another private club in Columbus?

[Jeff_Brauer]

Not many know how artificial MV is. I rode in a cart with Jay Morrish once watching JN play it and he explained how the creek on 14, for example, is built.  The valleys the course were built in were really very narrow and deep and many were filled in from ridgetops that are now housing.  In some cases, the fills were up to 50 feet.

I thiink it exemplifies a modern test of golf.  Its very good. I agree that I wouldn't pick it as my last course because of history, but it has some and continues to build on its own tournament history.  Some day, when JN passes on, I think it will get a boost in the rankings based on his association.  Of course, put that way, I am pretty sure JN will not be in any rush to raise its stature!

[John Sabino]

Joel - Interesting comments from Jack. I generally agree with the other responses that it's a great golf course, but I think it is ranked about right. I would agree that the location argument Jack makes doesn't hold water, given that there are better courses locally. I think if it were on Long Island it would actually rank lower than it does now.

Jeff - I actually think the opposite. I think it ranks higher now as a respect thing because Jack is alive. I think once he passes on it will likely rank lower.

One of the best conditioned courses I have ever played for sure. His design concept of almost all downhill shots is an interesting one at MV and not something you see too often.

New pictures from my recent visit:

http://top100golf.blogspot.com/2009/09/muirfield-village-golf-club.html

John

[Michael Blake]

John,

Nice write-up of Muirfield.
How many years has it taken to play the 87?
How many more until you reach 100?

[Peter_Herreid]

John, I'm confused about something...

After having been pointed there by several friends who knew of you, I have periodically checked in with your blog about your travels and quest over the years, but those folks referred to you as "Joe Rigo", not "John Sabino"...I'm pretty good with names, as it is part of my business life, so I don't think I have that mixed up, but perhaps you could set me straight (I have been wrong before...)

The description of one of your visits in particular is nearly verbatim to an experience related to me by a colleague who hosted a "Joe Rigo", so I think you should find out if someone might be mis-representing himself as the author of your blog in order to gain access to these courses.

If such a person is doing so, it would certainly jeopardize your pursuit, I would think...

Also, I think this same person has sold some of the items obtained on his visit(s) on ebay, as I think I myself may have actually purchased something from Fishers or Myopia or some place like that from a "Joe Rigo"...

Any thoughts?

[George Pazin]

Lord knows Pine Valley, Augusta and Oakmont benefit tremendously from being located in Clementon, Augusta, and the Burgh.

[Chris_Clouser]

Joel,

I've played Muirfield and granted a lot has changed since I played it in the early 90s, but there is no way it ranks that high.  I have a hard time putting even in my top 10 and I haven't played that many of the top 100 courses in the country.  I agree with the repetition thing.  The same feeling is evident in his course built just a couple of miles from my house.  I actually thought it was a mini-version of MV when I saw it the first time, some of the holes are that similar in nature. 

I guess I could agree about the youth thing of the course, but that is more than compensated for with its association with Jack, the fact it holds a near major tourney every year and that so many of the games top players love the course.  Those three things sway raters as much as anything else you see in the actual design of any course.  And he is overly biased for his own labor of love.  As for a major pedigree, it holds a near major every year on the tour and has held a Ryder Cup.  What more could he ask for?  If he wants a major he will probably have to cancel his tournament one year to prep for it. 

I will never understand the argument about location dictating the ranking of a course.  If that does influence it then the rater should have their status taken away.  A course should be rated the same way whether it is in Monterey, Long Island, Columbus, or wherever. 

[Joel Zuckerman]

One other factor I neglected to mention in my original post regarding JN's relative dismay that MV isn't ranked higher:

Until recently, MV wasn't particularly welcoming to course raters.  It's only in the last few years, according to the head professional, that they have welcomed raters with regularity.

This point was underscored by the high-powered golf-writing types that were my companions on this quick overnight visit.  They had high-profile positions at places like LINKS, the Golf Channel, Golfweek and Golf Digest.  Several had visited to cover The Memorial previously, but to a man, they were all making their first foray onto the golf course with sticks in hand.

[Pat Burke]

Agree with most here, especially the comment that if on Long Island, it would likely be ranked lower.
If it were in Socal, it might be in the top 20
Muirfield is a great experience as mentioned, but the whole experience does not make it a better design.

[Kenny Baer]

What a small world it is, I am headed to Columbus tomorrow to play Muirfield on Thursday afternoon. 

[Peter Pallotta]

Joel - thanks for this; it's neat to get the inside scoop.  Can't comment on MV and rankings, but what came to mind was Tom D's musings about whether JN's recent golf courses had gotten harder, i.e. whether he had begun building tough golf courses again. And I wonder if there is the implicit connection being made, the equating of architectural excellence with championship tests.

Peter

[Jim Franklin]

John, I'm confused about something...

After having been pointed there by several friends who knew of you, I have periodically checked in with your blog about your travels and quest over the years, but those folks referred to you as "Joe Rigo", not "John Sabino"...I'm pretty good with names, as it is part of my business life, so I don't think I have that mixed up, but perhaps you could set me straight (I have been wrong before...)

The description of one of your visits in particular is nearly verbatim to an experience related to me by a colleague who hosted a "Joe Rigo", so I think you should find out if someone might be mis-representing himself as the author of your blog in order to gain access to these courses.

If such a person is doing so, it would certainly jeopardize your pursuit, I would think...

Also, I think this same person has sold some of the items obtained on his visit(s) on ebay, as I think I myself may have actually purchased something from Fishers or Myopia or some place like that from a "Joe Rigo"...

Any thoughts?

My thoughts exactly.

[Matt_Ward]

Joel:

If you personally believe MV is "underrated" -- can you tell me how high you believe the course should be from a national perspective?

Are you suggesting it be a top ten layout ?

MV has consistently been among the top 25 courses in the USA.

I have played MV twice and both of those times came years ago but I have to wonder how much of the course's reputation is owed to the Nicklaus linkage and to the tournament played there each year?

Remove those two connections and does the course still hold itself that high?

[Jeff_Brauer]

Matt,

Could we say the same about Augusta?  Bay Hill?  Or many other old courses that get and maintain their rankings via their historical connections (also thinking Colonial and Hogan here)

MV ought to be good, since JN has tweaked it over the years, and it is.  Now, sytles have changed, and its 70's big smooth bunker look is a bit out of vogue now, but it plays very well from a good players perspective, no?  But, I think it will endure as one of the best of that era on its own merit and should be preserved in the same basic style, even if continually tweaked to meet its tournament needs.

Overall, I think the MV rankings are about right, BTW.  It doesn't need to go too much higher, and certainly no lower. 

[Mark Pritchett]

Matt,

Could we say the same about Augusta?  Bay Hill?  Or many other old courses that get and maintain their rankings via their historical connections (also thinking Colonial and Hogan here)

MV ought to be good, since JN has tweaked it over the years, and it is.  Now, sytles have changed, and its 70's big smooth bunker look is a bit out of vogue now, but it plays very well from a good players perspective, no?  But, I think it will endure as one of the best of that era on its own merit and should be preserved in the same basic style, even if continually tweaked to meet its tournament needs.

Overall, I think the MV rankings are about right, BTW.  It doesn't need to go too much higher, and certainly no lower. 

Like Harbour Town?

[Jeff_Brauer]

Mark,

Interesting comparison.  HT is, after all, a real estate course like MV.  Even more than MV, its annual tourney was started to sell houses, too!

[Matt_Ward]

Jeff, Mark:

Yes, the situation I mentioned need not be just tailored to the placement of MV.

Frankly, the elements of who sponsors an event -- the nature of what is played there -- are elements that can certainly impact how people feel about a course. Great architecture is not always linked to such matters and it's helpful if people would understand that and with that in mind either elevate or diminish certain places.

[Jeff_Brauer]

Matt,

I never felt that the rankings were purely architecture based.  You might give Augusta National a low ranking on design (Ron Whitten did as an example of how raters should apply the GD system) and it would still come out a top ten course because of its history.  And there is nothing wrong with that.  It is what it is.