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Mark Chaplin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Deal or Sandwich - The toughest?
« on: January 03, 2007, 06:39:13 PM »
OK I realise a little southeast England tussle will not catch everyones imagination, but far from being remote these 2 great links courses are a 90 minute drive from central London. Just add an extra day to your business trip and take in a Open Championship venue, you will not regret it.

So which is the tougher venue? I have compared the results of each clubs premier 36 hole open scratch event played over the first weekend of June. Royal Cinque Ports holds the Prince of Wales Challenge Cup and the following day Royal St Georges hold the Grand Challenge. A combined 72 hole prize is also awarded. Each draws a strong field and many Walker Cup players have been victorious. I must point out the GCC started in 1888 and the winners include John Ball (4) H.H.Hilton (2) and Jack Nicklaus in 1959. PoW winners include Sir Michael Bonallack and Lee Westwood (who shot 160).

Since 1933 the average score winning score at Deal is 149.02 and at Sandwich 148.61. The lowest winning score is 138 and 137 (twice) respectively, the highest winning score 162 (twice) and 158 (twice) again respectively. In 1976 during what must have been a howler of a weekend the winners shot 162 at Deal followed by 158 at Sandwich. This suggests Deal is harder in stronger winds.

Between 1933-1959 the winning average at Deal was 150.72 compared to 147.83 at Sandwich.

Between 1960-1979 it was Deal 150.83 to 148 at Sandwich.

However from 1980-2005 Deal dropped to 146 and Sandwich rose to 150.

Conclusion, well remember this is top amateurs not the average player, I suggest over the last 25 years modern technology has made Deal 2 strokes a round easier. On the other hand Sandwich has held 3 Opens since 1981, the changes made by the club and the R&A moving bunkers up fairways and general lengthening of the course has stiffened the course by a shot a round despite Pro Vs and titanium.
As a 9 handicapper playing Sandwich off the stones my 260yd drives fell safely short of the new 280-300yd fairway bunkers, where as at Deal the 240-260yd bunkers play havoc with my scoring.

It's possible Sandwich has got slightly easier for the average player who cannot reach the "modern" trouble yet harder at Deal as we cannot get past the older bunkering??  

 
Cave Nil Vino

Robert Mercer Deruntz

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Deal or Sandwich - The toughest?
« Reply #1 on: January 04, 2007, 02:08:05 AM »
My experience was that Sanwich tested the driving more, and Deal better tested the approaches.  In addition, the greens at Deal have much more undulation.  

Kevin Pallier

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Deal or Sandwich - The toughest?
« Reply #2 on: January 04, 2007, 02:28:40 AM »
Mark

Interesting Q...

I've only played each course once - so somewhat inexperienced to compare the two under varying conditions.

I think much like Robert though - Sandwich has more variables on the drive (bounces etc.) and Deal more variables on/around the greens for mine save for the bunkering.

If pressed to push - I'd probably lean towards Sandwich being the tougher over the full 18 holes though Deals B9 was damn tough the day I played it.


Tony_Muldoon

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Deal or Sandwich - The toughest?
« Reply #3 on: January 04, 2007, 03:10:55 AM »
Good research Mark breaking it down like that.  You might also want to have a look at last years Amateur Championship Strokeplay Qualifying rounds played over Sandwich and Princes.  From memory the wind was ‘significant’ those two days and perhaps surprisingly the CSS for Prince’s was within a shot and a half of RSG.


http://www.randa.org/index.cfm?action=championship.amateurLeaderboard&id=7&cfid=4594877&cftoken=38967162

If Deal really is to get a Walker Cup or Amateur Championship will they have to move the bunkering?  You often see on here discussion on the lines of ‘why are we changing courses for 0.5% of the world’s players’, but no one ever mentions that these changes could actually make the course a little easier for the other 99.5%.
Let's make GCA grate again!

ForkaB

Re:Deal or Sandwich - The toughest?
« Reply #4 on: January 04, 2007, 06:19:14 AM »
Mark

It is possible that Deal could play tougher than Sandwich, but so what?  Kingsbarn could play tougher than the Old Course, but are they going to move the Open there soon?  Pigs will fly first.....

That being said, I suspect that Deal will have an Open sooner rather than later.  I don't think that the phrase "Champion Golfere of the Year, Ben Curtis!" resonates terribly well with the R&A, and there are a lot of Halford-Hewitt alumni who are members there........

Mark Chaplin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Deal or Sandwich - The toughest?
« Reply #5 on: January 04, 2007, 06:24:03 AM »
Kevin and Robert - I agree with the driving at RStG being tougher than Deal and likewise the smaller more undulating Deal greens being harder. I think this is why Deal appears to play a shot or two trickier in the stronger winds.

Tony - I think most courses need bunkers moved up the course to continue testing the best who now fly anything under 260-270 from the tee. These bunkers didn't affect the 6-14 handicapper 20 years ago but our jumbo equipment has brought them within range whilst the intended victim is 20 or 30 yards down the fairway with a wedge in his hand.

IMO a club of Royal Cinque Ports status should look to hold a major R&A or EGU event every 6-10 years and to to that you must keep up the challenge for the finest players.
Cave Nil Vino

Noel Freeman

Re:Deal or Sandwich - The toughest?
« Reply #6 on: January 04, 2007, 07:47:09 AM »
Mark--

I look forward to testing this hypothesis (however flawed) this year at Deal and Sandwich.. Unfortunately my game is too variable but obviously we should ask Andrew Reynolds his thoughts perhaps in a few weeks when we are there together.

In any event, I hope Deal does gets its Open Championship again although maybe a Walker Cup is more likely.  That said, our greens are what really make the course a standout in my opinion vs. Sandwich.  I guess the rub of the green can always come into play at Deal and add a stroke when the pressure is on..

RT

Re:Deal or Sandwich - The toughest?
« Reply #7 on: January 04, 2007, 07:49:17 AM »
As in 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17 greens....

Brent Hutto

Re:Deal or Sandwich - The toughest?
« Reply #8 on: January 04, 2007, 09:30:29 AM »
I've seen good players in the Amateur Championship at Sandwich and experienced Deal with my own bogey-golfer's game. So take this for what it's worth...

I agree that Sandwich is the greater driving test, and in my opinion very much so. Then again the rough was up at Sandwich but not so at Deal the week I was there so perhaps that would even things up a bit. Still, there are more contours in the landing areas that much be accounted for at Sandwich.

I also agree that the greens at Deal are noticably more confounding to any level of player. As mentioned 12-17 are a remarkable set of putting surfaces--well actually the twelfth is sort of sui generis and perhaps not as much difficult as just neat and interesting--offering perhaps more opportunity for rewarding well-placed tee shots and complicating approaches from out of position.

I'll venture two guesses on this subject. One is that the reason Deal gets so much harder in the wind (for strong players) is that a modern aerial power game can negate most or all of the situations where a "good approach shot" (so called) bounds off into trouble. Enough breeze is necessary to remove that approach from the hands of elite young players, otherwise they can to a great extent ignore angles and just hold greens (or even sections of greens) with height and spin. Put enough wind out there to make a +3 handicap college-age player approach Deal with the trajectory I have to use and there's a lot of uncertainty about the outcome of approach shots. And as others have pointed out, the back nine in particular exhibits a dearth of flat 20-foot putt opportunities.

My second speculation is more of a long shot, just a stray thought really. Is it possible that even in elite competition there's something about the relative visual intimidation of the two courses that makes Sandwich seem more respect-worthy and this leads to the mistake of players attacking Deal somewhat more aggressively than optimum whereas they tack their way around Sandwich more conservatively? Frankly, at first viewing one might think that Royal Cinque Ports can be readily overpowered. I don't believe that is necessarily true but great portions of it seem there for the taking with the possible caveat "except for a few holes coming in". On the other hand, Royal St. George's is gorgeous and awe-inspiring from start to finish and many of the tee shot requirements serve as constant reminders of how ones round can slip away if too many tee shots drift into that long grass waving in the breeze.

I'm pretty sure that at the Amateur some of the less experienced or first-time competitors made that mistake vis a vis Princes. I think it's a perfectly natural tendency to look at the two courses (side by side, no less!) and think "OK, there's the tough one and over there is the not as tough one". In fact, due to the narrowness of the fairways and difficulty of the rough Princes "resisted scoring" pretty much as well as its illustrious neighbor in last year's championship. To my eye, Deal looks even more managable than Princes even though historic scoring seems to suggest otherwise.

Mark_Rowlinson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Deal or Sandwich - The toughest?
« Reply #9 on: January 04, 2007, 09:44:55 AM »
Interesting hypotheses.  I don't know either course well enough to make any comment and my game would be seriously taken apart at either course.  I have played Princes (all 27 holes) more recently and I have to say that I was not taken apart.  True, it was winter and the rough was negligible, the greens slow and holding and the tees were well forward, but it did not intimidate me off the tee as Royal St George's had done (and I was then playing to low double figures).  

Whatever the merits of the courses, it is a good question that generates the phrase sui generis in the replies!

Brent Hutto

Re:Deal or Sandwich - The toughest?
« Reply #10 on: January 04, 2007, 09:50:40 AM »
Mark,

Sue Generis, eh? Years ago I dated her, expecting her to be something special but turned out she was just like all the other girls...

apologies to Gregg Easterbrook

michael j fay

Re:Deal or Sandwich - The toughest?
« Reply #11 on: January 04, 2007, 09:56:20 AM »
I think that Sandwich is just a bit tougher. I would call it the X factor.

At Sandwich you do not have to miss the ball that badly off the tee to lose it. That leads to an X. My last round at Sandwich I started X,X and finished birdie,X,par,par,X.

I shot 63 plus four X.

Mark_Rowlinson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Deal or Sandwich - The toughest?
« Reply #12 on: January 04, 2007, 10:00:40 AM »
Michael, I like that way of scoring.  Must try it myself, as soon as possible.

Phil Benedict

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Deal or Sandwich - The toughest?
« Reply #13 on: January 04, 2007, 01:27:00 PM »
Speaking of lost balls, was it at the Open at Sandwich that Tiger had a lost ball on his very first shot?

Tommy Williamsen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Deal or Sandwich - The toughest?
« Reply #14 on: January 04, 2007, 05:46:13 PM »
As far as I amconcerned they are both hard as hell.  The shots areound the green at Deal really put a premium on the sort game.  Since they are one of my strenghts I prefer Deal.
Where there is no love, put love; there you will find love.
St. John of the Cross

"Deep within your soul-space is a magnificent cathedral where you are sweet beyond telling." Rumi

Mark Chaplin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Deal or Sandwich - The toughest?
« Reply #15 on: September 30, 2009, 12:48:09 PM »
Just bringing up an old post to reply to a Buda question. I played Deal Monday, Sandwich today and I'm back at Sandwich tomorrow. I still stay with my reasoning that Sandwich is a tougher driving course when the tees are back and Deal is tougher to save par around the greens.
Also just like Deal (12,14,15 & 18) four of the toughest pars at Sandwich are those playing into the prevailing wind - 3, 4, 10 & 17

Gordon Irvine stated last week he believed Deal may have the best green complexes in England with so many holes giving options of how the feed the ball into the pin positions it's difficult to disagree.

Both have their merits and I love a game at each!!
Cave Nil Vino

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Deal or Sandwich - The toughest?
« Reply #16 on: September 30, 2009, 01:01:14 PM »
I gotta believe this sort of thing depends on the wind and the conditions of the rough.  All things equal, I say Sandwich is tougher, but there really isn't anything in it.

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Mark Pearce

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Deal or Sandwich - The toughest?
« Reply #17 on: September 30, 2009, 01:03:15 PM »
It also depends on pin positions.  Good luck saving par on 9 and 10 at RSG with the pins where they were last Tuesday!
In June I will be riding the first three stages of this year's Tour de France route for charity.  630km (394 miles) in three days, with 7800m (25,600 feet) of climbing for the William Wates Memorial Trust (https://rideleloop.org/the-charity/) which supports underprivileged young people.

Mark_Fine

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Deal or Sandwich - The toughest?
« Reply #18 on: September 30, 2009, 01:06:57 PM »
A number of years ago, myself and a buddy stopped in at a local pub not far from both courses for a few pints and at the bar were the two pros from both courses arguing this same question.  We joined the discussion, however, the argument wasn't over which one was tougher, it was over which one was the best golf course.  After many pints, we never reached a conclusion (nor did I expect we would).  I love both courses though I would say Sandwich is the tougher test of golf.  

Mark Chaplin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Deal or Sandwich - The toughest?
« Reply #19 on: September 30, 2009, 01:18:52 PM »
I agree there are 1001 variables but as I said two years ago my research was done on the winning score of each club's major amateur open played on the same weekend with a pretty similar field. Over the years the pin positions, wind and weather will even out.

Currently the tee shot bunkering at Deal on 9, 11, 13 and 15 are tough carries from the back tees for reasonable players. For the best amateur and professional golfers they are line markers with 250yd carries a simple proposition in anything but a very strong wind.

Is Peter Hedges 162 at Deal followed by 138 the following year the biggest variation of winning scores by the same player on the same course? At the time he was a Walker Cup player
Cave Nil Vino

Jamie Barber

Re: Deal or Sandwich - The toughest?
« Reply #20 on: September 30, 2009, 02:05:52 PM »
From my limited experience RSG is tougher, but more because I had trouble picking the lines off the tees. That said, I've only played Deal from the daily tees which aren't too long. I also think Prince's is a similarly difficult test - at the Amateur in 2007 CSS at RSG was higher than at Prince's; at the 2008 Senior Amateur CSS for Prince's was higher than at Deal.

One thing that surprises me about Deal is how soft the greens are. I would have thought this makes it easier for better players as shots stop pretty close to where they land, so you can take on the pins a bit more.

I think with any links, it depends largely on the conditions. A windy day, especially if the rough is up, it can be a nightmare. On a still day, you can really score. My handicap is down 3 shots this year which I think is largely due to the dry conditions so rough was light.
« Last Edit: September 30, 2009, 02:24:31 PM by Jamie Barber »

JESII

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Deal or Sandwich - The toughest?
« Reply #21 on: September 30, 2009, 02:13:05 PM »
Any chance you can cipher out the scores from the 1997 Amateur on a day-by-day basis?

With the weather equal at each site and the same crew setting the holes it might be the best comparison of good players scores.

I shot 85 at RSG in a howler and then 80 or 81 at Deal but didn't feel like I'd played better...no defnitive answer from me due to just the one round on each plus a practice round to find my way.

Mark Chaplin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Deal or Sandwich - The toughest?
« Reply #22 on: September 30, 2009, 02:53:19 PM »
Jim - I'll see if I can find out, can you remember what total qualified for the matchplay? Will be easier from next year with the South of England Links being played over both courses.
Cave Nil Vino

Mark Woodger

Re: Deal or Sandwich - The toughest?
« Reply #23 on: September 30, 2009, 03:11:30 PM »
thanks for finding this topic Mark. I asked the question in the BUDA chat as I was once told that Deal was two shots harder than RSG and have often wondered what other people think is the tougher course.

I have only played RSG twice so its hard to from a strong opinion either way. First was in bad conditions and i came unstuck pretty quickly the other i was scoring nicely and then blew up two holes (8 and 9) and then it was downhill from there. But i don't think there was a stretch of holes where it felt as relentless as the 11-18 at Deal. Regardless of the wind i personally find those holes a real battle to score well on but that is probably a mental scar as much as anything. ;D

Regardless i think there are plenty of challenges on both courses to never get boared playing either.  :)

 
I played Deal Monday, Sandwich today and I'm back at Sandwich tomorrow.

That's a great week of golf right there!
 

JESII

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Deal or Sandwich - The toughest?
« Reply #24 on: September 30, 2009, 03:27:10 PM »
Jim - I'll see if I can find out, can you remember what total qualified for the matchplay? Will be easier from next year with the South of England Links being played over both courses.

I seem to recall about 155 or 156...not sure anyone broke par at Sandwich either day.

I loved going out on the second day of matches and watching a 16 year old Justin Rose mow down a young Spaniard (I thought it was Sergio based on his reputation coming in, but can't claim to recall that name at the time) 6&5 while about 6 under par...clearly the wind had slowed...