Ross's courses

[Tom MacWood]

"I believe the changes to Whitemarsh Valley were a little more comprehensive than you realize and Whitemarsh was a superior and more well known golf course than Orlando (before and after)."


Whitemarsh Valley obviously was considered to be a more well known golf course than Orlando CC but first of all, I'm not so sure you could possibly know what I realize Ross changes to Whitemarsh Valley were because I don't believe I've ever talked about them on here or to you. Secondly, Ross's contribution to Whitemarsh Valley might be more complicated than you have ever realized and what really happened there with Ross might be indicated to some extent by that example of Ross claiming 27 holes at Aronimink when we all know only 18 were ever built (of course Ross did do drawings for the third nine that was never built which the club has). 

I have Ross's plans for changes to Whitemarsh Valley but interestingly those Ross drawings came to us in that box of William Flynn's entire career drawings that were found in a barn in Bucks Co. where they had been for over fifty years. It would seem that Whitemarsh Valley must have hired Ross to draw some proposed changes but instead decided to go with William Flynn and that is probably why Ross's drawings for Whitemarsh Valley ended up in that box in that barn in Bucks Co containing almost all Flynn's career drawings.

That is also how we found Raynor's whole course design drawing for The Creek Club which Flynn made some changes to around 1926-1929!

Here are two articles from the Philadelphia Inquirer. The first article is from 4/22/1919 and the second from 12/3/1919.

[Rick Shefchik]

No mention in the pamphlet of either White Bear Yacht Club or Minneapolis Golf Club, both of which are officially credited as Ross redesigns by the respective clubs. (Also, no reference to Cloquet Country Club near Duluth, which calls itself a Ross -- original 9, anyway -- without any evidence that I'm aware of.)

Rick
William Watson designed WBYC and Tom Bendelow designed Minneapolis.

Tom, you may be thinking of Edina Country Club when you mention Bendelow. He designed Edina, while Minneapolis GC credits Willie Park, Jr., for its original layout. Ross did a redesign and re-routing of Minneapolis GC in 1919. Bendelow also did some minor adjustments to William Watson's original Minikahda layout before Ross came in to do a redesign in 1916.

I'm curious why Ross would include Minikahda on his list, but not Minneapolis, when they both seem to be similar re-design projects.

It's also curious that Ross includes Interlachen, which was also designed by William Watson and redesigned by Ross in 1919, and Northland, which he redesigned in 1927, but not WBYC.

The WBYC club history book does not mention William Watson laying out the original course; in fact, it credits Ross for designing the original nine that opened in 1912, though that could certainly be erroneous, as the club's records seem to have been lost in the 1938 clubhouse fire. But there doesn't seem to be any doubt in the minds of WBYC members that Ross redesigned the course when it expanded to 18-holes sometime after additional land was purchased in 1914. So even if Watson did do the original 9, I wonder why Ross didn't put it on his list after the redesign? Maybe he made distinctions on redesigns, depending on how much the course was changed after he was done with it.

[Jason Topp]

No mention in the pamphlet of either White Bear Yacht Club or Minneapolis Golf Club, both of which are officially credited as Ross redesigns by the respective clubs. (Also, no reference to Cloquet Country Club near Duluth, which calls itself a Ross -- original 9, anyway -- without any evidence that I'm aware of.)

Rick
William Watson designed WBYC and Tom Bendelow designed Minneapolis.

Tom, you may be thinking of Edina Country Club when you mention Bendelow. He designed Edina, while Minneapolis GC credits Willie Park, Jr., for its original layout. Ross did a redesign and re-routing of Minneapolis GC in 1919. Bendelow also did some minor adjustments to William Watson's original Minikahda layout before Ross came in to do a redesign in 1916.

I'm curious why Ross would include Minikahda on his list, but not Minneapolis, when they both seem to be similar re-design projects.

It's also curious that Ross includes Interlachen, which was also designed by William Watson and redesigned by Ross in 1919, and Northland, which he redesigned in 1927, but not WBYC.

The WBYC club history book does not mention William Watson laying out the original course; in fact, it credits Ross for designing the original nine that opened in 1912, though that could certainly be erroneous, as the club's records seem to have been lost in the 1938 clubhouse fire. But there doesn't seem to be any doubt in the minds of WBYC members that Ross redesigned the course when it expanded to 18-holes sometime after additional land was purchased in 1914. So even if Watson did do the original 9, I wonder why Ross didn't put it on his list after the redesign? Maybe he made distinctions on redesigns, depending on how much the course was changed after he was done with it.

Rick:

These threads explore WBYC and Minneapolis

http://golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,41434.0/

http://golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,41398.0/

[Jay Flemma]

No mention in the pamphlet of either White Bear Yacht Club or Minneapolis Golf Club, both of which are officially credited as Ross redesigns by the respective clubs. (Also, no reference to Cloquet Country Club near Duluth, which calls itself a Ross -- original 9, anyway -- without any evidence that I'm aware of.)

Rick
William Watson designed WBYC and Tom Bendelow designed Minneapolis.

Tom, you may be thinking of Edina Country Club when you mention Bendelow. He designed Edina, while Minneapolis GC credits Willie Park, Jr., for its original layout. Ross did a redesign and re-routing of Minneapolis GC in 1919. Bendelow also did some minor adjustments to William Watson's original Minikahda layout before Ross came in to do a redesign in 1916.

I'm curious why Ross would include Minikahda on his list, but not Minneapolis, when they both seem to be similar re-design projects.

It's also curious that Ross includes Interlachen, which was also designed by William Watson and redesigned by Ross in 1919, and Northland, which he redesigned in 1927, but not WBYC.

The WBYC club history book does not mention William Watson laying out the original course; in fact, it credits Ross for designing the original nine that opened in 1912, though that could certainly be erroneous, as the club's records seem to have been lost in the 1938 clubhouse fire. But there doesn't seem to be any doubt in the minds of WBYC members that Ross redesigned the course when it expanded to 18-holes sometime after additional land was purchased in 1914. So even if Watson did do the original 9, I wonder why Ross didn't put it on his list after the redesign? Maybe he made distinctions on redesigns, depending on how much the course was changed after he was done with it.

Rick, the we've discussed this to death on the WBYC thread...where the course historian caome on the site and said WBYC had an original 9 by watson in 1910, but that nine was lost and ross did 9 in 1912 and the next 9 in 1915.  Maybe Ross just didnt include every design in that pamphlet...or maybe the person he assigned the task missed one or two courses...but whatever the excuse, I think Tom places far too much emphasis on that document and other "omissions" than he should.  he can;'t prove that any of watson's nine exists...especially when the course tells him that nine was lost.  he can't prove that ross didn't design the course to my or the club's satisfaction.  It m akes MUCH more sense in view of ALL the evidence that Ross designed or re-designed WBYC and that none of watson's work still remains.
It also certainly looks like a Ross.

[Rick Shefchik]

I just spent the last four hours or so reading the two threads. When you take a week or two off here to do some work, you can miss a lot...

They were extremely interesting discussions, between the usual unnecessary potshots.

An observation and a question: In all the discussion of who did what at WBYC, the possible contributions of Tom Vardon are more or less dismissed as unimportant or irrelevant, but the man could design a little. I've played three of his courses: The University of Minnesota Bolstad Course (1929), which is built on terrain not that dissimilar to WBYC, and has some outstanding holes, though not the budget to maintain them as optimally as one might wish; Eau Claire Country Club, which Dan Kelly and I played at John Conley's suggestion, and thoroughly enjoyed as a wooded, hilly classic-era gem; and my home course, Stillwater Country Club (1924), which definitely demands some deeper study. I'll try to do a "My Home Course" one of these days. But I've seen enough of Vardon's work to believe he might have had significant input into WBYC's design.

The question: Where does the information come from that Tom Bendelow designed Minneapolis Golf Club, and has the club membership been informed?

[Gary_Nelson]

I've been away from this site for a while.  It is interesting that the first post I check on (this one about Ross) had a lot to say about Rogell (originally Phoenix GC?).    I met a friend of mine last Sunday and we played Rogell.  We knew it was a Ross course, but we could see so many changes (and opportunities for restoration).

Where might we find an original routing or course map?  There wasn't one posted in the clubhouse.  I'd be interested to see what the original routing, greens and bunkering looked like.

[Doug Braunsdorf]

What was/is Homestead, in Spring Lake, NJ?  Pat Mucci?  Phil Young, does this have anything to do with Tillinghast's Spring Lake GC of today?

[Tom MacWood]

Rich
I was wrong about Minneapolis GC. Bendelow was engaged before Park, and I mistakenly thought it was the other way around.

In 9/1916 it was reported (American Golfer): "Tom Bendelow, the Chicago expert, has been engaged to lay out 27 holes for the new Minneapolis GC at Golden Valley. Elwood Queen, assistant to George Sargent at Interlachen, has been engaged as professional. A temporary 9 holes was opened last month."

In 12/1916 it was reported (AG): "The Minneapolis GC has decided to abandon the property on which it had an option at Golden Valley and has purchased a 500-acre tract at Richmond. Willy Park will lay out the course."

For some reason Park never listed the course as one of his designs (see his list below circa 1922-23), which led me to believe there was a change in direction. I still think that is a possibility considering the thoroughness of Park's list. An interesting note, MGC hired William Clark as their new professional in March of 1917. Clark was a pretty good golf architect in his right, designing golf courses in the Midwest and Florida.

The temporary nine at Golden Valley became GVCC, and was remodeled and expanded by Tillinghast.

As far as Ross and MGC, the Ross Society, Klein and Whitten do not list Minneapolis, but strangely the late Pete Jones did list it as an original design in 1920. Jones devoted years of research into compiling a list of Ross golf courses and was consider the authority on his  work for the Ross Society before he passed about a decade ago. I'm not sure why MGC does not appear on the official list today. The fact that Ross himself did not list it makes me wonder how comprehensive his work was there, if in fact he was involved.

[TEPaul]

Tom MacWood:

Thanks for those articles in your post #50 on Whitemarsh Valley and the original Overbrook and Aronimink courses (both NLE). They seem to be another good example why researchers on the architectural evolutions of golf courses should not exclusively depend on newspaper articles for architectural evolution facts, particularly before the fact of an architect actually completing something for a golf course (because he in fact may not have done what was reported before the fact). It's always best to compare and contrast that kind of newspaper reporting with the records of the golf clubs in question.

[Tom MacWood]

TEP
I think you should read the second article a little more closely, it says the work is nearing completion. If you have something against newspaper articles perhaps you will appreciated this magazine article from Golf Illustrated (2/1920) that confirms the two newspaper reports.

http://www.la84foundation.org/SportsLibrary/GolfIllustrated/1920/gi125r.pdf

[Tom MacWood]

Rich
I don't think anyone is dismissing T. Vardon, but clearly Watson is the one who has been give the short shrift relatively speaking.

[Patrick_Mucci]

What was/is Homestead, in Spring Lake, NJ?  Pat Mucci?  Phil Young, does this have anything to do with Tillinghast's Spring Lake GC of today?

Doug,

It was across the street from Spring Lake,

I believe there was a restaurant, Tony Yanadi's Homestead, associated with the course.

It's a NLE.

[TEPaul]

Tom:

I'm not sure what that article you just linked has to do with anything pertinent to this particular thread but anyway.

I have nothing against newspaper articles, I just don't like to depend on them as a primary or sole source of information about what actually happened with the architecture of any golf course. They are helpful but I tend to think the contemporaneous administrative records of the clubs themselves are the best sources of information. I realize you don't feel that way though and perhaps because you never seem to use or seek golf club administrative records as your source of information and when it is presented to you it seems like you are instinctively suspect of it or tend to make a mockery of it as you've done with Merion and Myopia and even Pine Valley. I feel the reason you tend to do that is you've personally seen so little of it yourself because you don't seem to want to establish personal relationships with these clubs. Over the years you have given your reasons why you've chosen to do it that way but of course you know I don't agree with your approach and I never have.

We all go about architectural research in different ways I'm sure and you and I apparently go about it quite differently. And I do understand you think your way is better than mine but I have always felt my way is better than yours.

[TEPaul]

Hold me closer tiny dancer......Count the headlights on the highway...

SING IT baby!

[Tom MacWood]

TEP
I will assist you...the December 1919 Philadelphia Inquirer article confirmed what the April 1919 article reported was going to take place:

"Last Spring, Donald Ross spent several days at both clubs going over the links for the purpose of suggesting certain changes, refining the property in a golf sense. At Whitemarsh he plotted revolutionary alterations from the eleventh to the fifteenth holes inclusive, and made slight changes in a number of others. Practically all of the tees are being improves and the first is being greatly enlarged. The work is nearing completion will be finished by Spring."

And the Golf Illustrated reported this in February 1920. "Meantime one club in particular, Whitemarsh Valley, is doing all kinds of things to shift its map for the coming season. No Man's Land of the war, didn't have much on Whitemarsh now. Huge steam shovels and scoops are picking up sections of it bodily and placing them elsewhere. Creeks are being filled in here and there, trees set in elbows out in the fairway to make elbow holes, greens moved over two or three widths, or banked up or terraced, yawning traps made more yawning or shallower, and, in fact, nearly every hole is getting a thorough raking over."

Clearly Ross re-designed the course in 1919 despite your interpretation of what you found in the box.

[TEPaul]

Tom MacWood:

Thanks for the newspaper account education.  Did Golf Illustrated underline whole paragraphs for that purpose too.  

I think, like a lot of people on here, I have seen too many posts and opinions by you that are prefaced by something like; "My research shows..." or "I checked and it shows that...." and it's passed off by you as a virtual fact. In my opinion, those kinds of things are nothing more than your opinion like anyone else's opinion, and not much more. As I've always said, you are a very competent and productive researcher; I have just never thought your analyses of things has been in the same ballpark, but everyone is entitled to their own opinions, right?

After all this is a discussion group!  

[Patrick Hodgdon]

Rich
I was wrong about Minneapolis GC. Bendelow was engaged before Park, and I mistakenly thought it was the other way around.

In 9/1916 it was reported (American Golfer): "Tom Bendelow, the Chicago expert, has been engaged to lay out 27 holes for the new Minneapolis GC at Golden Valley. Elwood Queen, assistant to George Sargent at Interlachen, has been engaged as professional. A temporary 9 holes was opened last month."

In 12/1916 it was reported (AG): "The Minneapolis GC has decided to abandon the property on which it had an option at Golden Valley and has purchased a 500-acre tract at Richmond. Willy Park will lay out the course."

For some reason Park never listed the course as one of his designs (see his list below circa 1922-23), which led me to believe there was a change in direction. I still think that is a possibility considering the thoroughness of Park's list. An interesting note, MGC hired William Clark as their new professional in March of 1917. Clark was a pretty good golf architect in his right, designing golf courses in the Midwest and Florida.

The temporary nine at Golden Valley became GVCC, and was remodeled and expanded by Tillinghast.

As far as Ross and MGC, the Ross Society, Klein and Whitten do not list Minneapolis, but strangely the late Pete Jones did list it as an original design in 1920. Jones devoted years of research into compiling a list of Ross golf courses and was consider the authority on his  work for the Ross Society before he passed about a decade ago. I'm not sure why MGC does not appear on the official list today. The fact that Ross himself did not list it makes me wonder how comprehensive his work was there, if in fact he was involved.

My dad just joined Minneapolis GC and I was planning on taking pictures sometime in the next week before I move back to Florida. I did see in the clubhouse they have 2 sets of blueprints framed together, one being the original Park design and the second the Ross. Based on the change in layout (the Clubhouse was moved by Ross) I would say it's almost all a Ross course (in other words I don't think more than a few Park holes were kept.) I'll try and get a picture of the blueprints as well.

[Jason Topp]

For some reason Park never listed the course as one of his designs (see his list below circa 1922-23), which led me to believe there was a change in direction. I still think that is a possibility considering the thoroughness of Park's list. An interesting note, MGC hired William Clark as their new professional in March of 1917. Clark was a pretty good golf architect in his right, designing golf courses in the Midwest and Florida.

Thanks for the update and continued investigation Tom.  As I think you know, Clark was the original professional and designer of my course, Oak Ridge, which is about 3 miles from Minneapolis.  He signed on as the pro and designed the first nine in 1921 and the second in 1940 - remaining as the pro the entire time.  I speculate in my write up of the course that Clark had some experience building at least one of the recent courses in the area.  Perhaps it was Minneapolis.

http://golfclubatlas.com/in-my-opinion/oak-ridge-country-club

I remember you mentioning Clark as the architect of courses in Florida but I have never found any.  The only course I could find is a muni in Minneapolis called Francis A. Gross which is a terrific course kept in Muni condition.

[Tom MacWood]

Jason
Here is course near Orlando credited to Clark. I've seen it referred to as Mt. Plymouth CC and also St. Andrews Golf Club. It has very interesting look to it IMO. The article is from American Golfer March 1927 and the picture is from AG December 1932.

[Jason Topp]

Jason
Here is course near Orlando credited to Clark. I've seen it referred to as Mt. Plymouth CC and also St. Andrews Golf Club. It has very interesting look to it IMO. The article is from American Golfer March 1927 and the picture is from AG December 1932.

Thanks Tom.

I wonder if it is the same William Clark. The article says he is "of Chicago." In 1927 Clark was serving at the Professional at my club in Minnesota.  Contemporaneous writings confirm he was here.

Clark could originally be from Chicago or the article could be wrong. 

[Tom MacWood]

Jason
I don't know if that is the same William Clark or not. I checked the Golfers Yearbook in 1926 and the pro at Oak Ridge was listed as OW Chapmin. Here are couple of articles from American Golfer in 1913 that mention Clark redesigning the course at Omaha Field. He was the pro at OFC before coming to Minneapolis.  He is mentioned on page 269 in the first one and p. 357 in the second.

http://www.la84foundation.org/SportsLibrary/AmericanGolfer/1913/ag93o.pdf

http://www.la84foundation.org/SportsLibrary/AmericanGolfer/1913/ag94o.pdf

[Dan Dingman]

Sean - I believe The Phoenix Club was the original membership for Franklin Hills CC that moved out to the suburbs in 1926 when the course was built. I could be wrong but it seems I read this somewhere.

DD

[Jason Topp]

Jason
I don't know if that is the same William Clark or not. I checked the Golfers Yearbook in 1926 and the pro at Oak Ridge was listed as OW Chapmin. Here are couple of articles from American Golfer in 1913 that mention Clark redesigning the course at Omaha Field. He was the pro at OFC before coming to Minneapolis.  He is mentioned on page 269 in the first one and p. 357 in the second.

Thanks Tom

Given it is the correct middle initial, it must be the same guy in the articles.  This winter I may ask our superintendant to show me the diary he has shared before to see who OW Chapmin is.  I do not remember that name but it has been four years since I reviewed them.

[Tom MacWood]

Here is another article.

[Doug Braunsdorf]

Hold me closer tiny dancer......Count the headlights on the highway...

SING IT baby!

Tom,

  We're talking about Ross, not Emmett.