Ross's courses

[Jason Topp]

Dave:

How does the list in your blog compare to the one that Macwood posted?  Are they the same list?  If so, it would appear to be a partial list:



The NC page looks the same:

[TEPaul]

I would have to say it doesn't seem exactly conclusive to me that if a golf course was not listed in a pamphlet like the Ross one on here that means that Ross had nothing to do with said course.

A good analogy might be C.B. Macdonald's book, "Scotland's Gift Golf" that does not seem to mention a few courses which Macdonald didn't just have a little to do with, he had a WHOLE LOT to do with them.

So why did he not mention some of them while he prominently mentioned some others?

Aha! Very good question, the answer to which I think I have a pretty good idea about, or certainly about one of them! 

[Kirk Gill]

In Colorado Ross only lists The Broadmoor course, and I do know that he designed other courses here. In particular, I've seen copies of the Ross drawings for the Wellshire golf course (thank you Doug Wright !). I don't know that the date of the pamphlet would be the issue in this case, as apparently that course was done during the same period as The Broadmoor. Of course, he may have chosen to only list certain courses, based on a criteria to which we are not privy.

[Chris Buie]

Other than the cover page the first pamplet appears to be the same as the list Mr. Topp posted.  It seems to me that both are partial lists of what he considered his highlights for the purpose of soliciting further projects.  A busy man by any standard.

[Rick Shefchik]

No mention in the pamphlet of either White Bear Yacht Club or Minneapolis Golf Club, both of which are officially credited as Ross redesigns by the respective clubs. (Also, no reference to Cloquet Country Club near Duluth, which calls itself a Ross -- original 9, anyway -- without any evidence that I'm aware of.)

[Tim Leahy]

Did Beresford CC in San Mateo,  CA become Peninsula CC?

[Tom MacWood]

Phil
The history you quoted makes me wonder exactly what Ross did for Oconomowoc. I suspect there is a very good reason why he did not include it.

Which is.....?

If this list is one of the primary reasons you cite for Watson vs. Ross' design at White Bear YC, why should it not then be used as a source for Ross' design of Oconomowoc?

Phil
I don't know why Ross didn't include it, but I'm sure he had a good reason. Perhaps the course was not built by him or the course was subsequently changed or one of a dozen other potential reasons. The history you quoted claims the course opened in 1916, however American Golfer reported that the new course would be opening in the spring of 1917. I'm not sure the reason for the discrepancy in dates. And I don't see the parallel with WBYC. There you have two different contemporaneous internal club sources saying Watson designed the course, with Ross giving advice at some point. Apples and oranges IMO.

http://www.la84foundation.org/SportsLibrary/AmericanGolfer/1917/ag174m.pdf

Tyler
Thanks for the info.

TEP
Orlando CC was nine hole course that dated back to 1910. I'm not sure who designed it; Ross added a second nine in 1917.

Kirk
The Broadmoor was designed in 1918 and I believe Wellshire was designed in 1924 or 1925. I'm not sure what the story is with Wellshire, but seem to recall Walter Hatch's name being associated with the course.

[Tom MacWood]

No mention in the pamphlet of either White Bear Yacht Club or Minneapolis Golf Club, both of which are officially credited as Ross redesigns by the respective clubs. (Also, no reference to Cloquet Country Club near Duluth, which calls itself a Ross -- original 9, anyway -- without any evidence that I'm aware of.)

Rick
William Watson designed WBYC and Tom Bendelow designed Minneapolis.

Tim
Beresford did become Peninsula.

[Kirk Gill]

Tom, I know that Doug Wright has posted that Wellshire was designed exclusively from topo maps, and that Ross never visited the site. However, I seem to remember Mark Fine (perhaps?) writing on here that Ross did visit. I think that your dates are correct, although I've also seen a 1926 date for Wellshire.

[noonan]

I'm pretty sure Ross didn't come to the States until 1899.

I played in the Piqua(OH) 100 year anniversary in 1997.

[Steve Wilson]

 Sean Arble

You may not have been able to find Rogell on the brochure since an existing course was renamed for Billy Rogell who played shortstop for the Tigers between 1924 and 1940 and then was a long time city council member.  I have no idea what the  name of the original course was, but I think it's most likely a case of an identity change rather than an omission.

[Dan Moore]

Curious that he doesn't list Beverly as a remodel given the extent to which he apparently used O'Neil's routing and at the same time listed Exmoor as a remodel when he totally rerouted the course.  Also no mention of Hinsdale (Illinois) which is listed in Brad Klein's book as a Ross.  He also did remodel work at Glen View and Midlothian in Chicago and those are not listed. 

[Sean_A]

Sean Arble

You may not have been able to find Rogell on the brochure since an existing course was renamed for Billy Rogell who played shortstop for the Tigers between 1924 and 1940 and then was a long time city council member.  I have no idea what the  name of the original course was, but I think it's most likely a case of an identity change rather than an omission.

Steve

I knew the course name was changed in honour of Rogell, but I can't find what it would have been called originally on that list because there is no other course listed which could have become Rogell (now New Rogell since the city of Detroit sold the course).  There are other Michigan courses missing as well.  It would be very interesting to know how Ross (at the time) came up with this list.

Ciao

[TEPaul]

"TEP
Orlando CC was nine hole course that dated back to 1910. I'm not sure who designed it; Ross added a second nine in 1917."


Then one wonders why CC of Orlando was not on that advertising pamphlet as he did list a course where he did a lot less (if anythng) than add nine holes (Whitemarsh Valley). I guess the point is that pamphlet should probably not be used as a comprehensive list of what was actually done or not done by the Ross company up until 1930. 

[Tom MacWood]

Steve

I knew the course name was changed in honour of Rogell, but I can't find what it would have been called originally on that list because there is no other course listed which could have become Rogell (now New Rogell since the city of Detroit sold the course).  There are other Michigan courses missing as well.  It would be very interesting to know how Ross (at the time) came up with this list.

Ciao

Sean
I did some checking it was originally Phoenix Country Club and it was designed by Tom Bendelow in 1914. It was Jewish Club and I believe Max Fisher was involved in its development. If you go near end (page 155) of the article linked below it talks about it being one of 30 courses Bendelow was involved with that year. The Ross Society has Ross's involvement dated 1921.

What other Michigan courses are missing?

http://www.la84foundation.org/SportsLibrary/AmericanGolfer/1914/ag132k.pdf

[Steve Wilson]

Sean,

I remembered reading about Rogell and that he had a Ross golf course named after him, but I couldn't remember where, when or why I knew such a thing.  I searched on line and found this:

Detroit's Historic Rogell Golf Course Has New Owner

The year was 1914. The leading citizens of Detroit's Jewish community, including Max Fisher, opened the Phoenix Golf Club, later to become the Rogell Golf Course. Now its new owners, the Greater Grace Temple, have preserved a special piece of the city's history as well as a local gem.
"This purchase is very significant in that we have become the only African-American-owned and -operated golf course in the entire state," said Greater Grace Temple Pastor, Bishop Charles H. Ellis III. "This course and club have a rich legacy dating back to 1914 and that includes the likes of such prominent men as Donald Ross and Max Fisher. We are excited to continue the revitalization of this northwest corner of Detroit with this $2-million investment."

Later on in the article it mentions the back nine, rolling hills and the Rouge River.

So it would appear that the course in question, the Phoenix Golf Club, is another of those not on the list for whatever reason.

Regards

[Steve Wilson]

Tom,

Aside from the fact that we nearly posted on top of one another, isn't it interesting that everyone claims Ross and so few mention Bendelow as their progenitor.  Perhaps Ross didn't claim Phoenix because it was more of a reworking or tweaking rather than a full fledged design.

[Tom MacWood]

"TEP
Orlando CC was nine hole course that dated back to 1910. I'm not sure who designed it; Ross added a second nine in 1917."


Then one wonders why CC of Orlando was not on that advertising pamphlet as he did list a course where he did a lot less (if anythng) than add nine holes (Whitemarsh Valley). I guess the point is that pamphlet should probably not be used as a comprehensive list of what was actually done or not done by the Ross company up until 1930. 

TEP
I have a two part answer: I believe the changes to Whitemarsh Valley were a little more comprehensive than you realize and Whitemarsh was a superior and more well known golf course than Orlando (before and after). If you are Donald Ross and you are going to list courses you've remodeled, you are only going to list those courses that are that are among the elite or at least semi-elite.

[Tom MacWood]

Tom,

Aside from the fact that we nearly posted on top of one another, isn't it interesting that everyone claims Ross and so few mention Bendelow as their progenitor.  Perhaps Ross didn't claim Phoenix because it was more of a reworking or tweaking rather than a full fledged design.

Steve
I agree with you. Also the few courses he did list as redesigns were fairly high profile and I'm not sure Phoenix would qualify.

[Sean_A]

Steve

I knew the course name was changed in honour of Rogell, but I can't find what it would have been called originally on that list because there is no other course listed which could have become Rogell (now New Rogell since the city of Detroit sold the course).  There are other Michigan courses missing as well.  It would be very interesting to know how Ross (at the time) came up with this list.

Ciao

Sean
I did some checking it was originally Phoenix Country Club and it was designed by Tom Bendelow in 1914. It was Jewish Club and I believe Max Fisher was involved in its development. If you go near end (page of the article linked below it talks about it being one of 30 courses Bendelow was involved with that year. The Ross Society has Ross's involvement dated 1921.

What other Michigan courses are missing?

Tommy Mac & Steve

Wow, I never heard of Phoenix CC in Detroit.  However, it does explain the rather odd design that Rogell is - nothing remotely like the other courses Ross was involved in Michigan at the same time period, but some of this may be explained by the odd shape of land and I suspect later reworking because of roads.  

Warren Valley which is two 18s today with an old 18 hole Ross course as their core isn't listed.  Western, another old Detroit club isn't listed.  St Claire CC ( I think it is now called its original name of St Clair River CC) is another club I know fairly well that isn't listed.

Its also interesting that Franklin Hills seems to be called Franklin Woods - in Detroit.  The place names for this listing could cause a lot of confusion because some are inaccurate.  

Ciao

[Tom MacWood]

Curious that he doesn't list Beverly as a remodel given the extent to which he apparently used O'Neil's routing and at the same time listed Exmoor as a remodel when he totally rerouted the course.  Also no mention of Hinsdale (Illinois) which is listed in Brad Klein's book as a Ross.  He also did remodel work at Glen View and Midlothian in Chicago and those are not listed.  

Dan
I agree that is curious about Beverly. There are several similar major redesigns he does not list as such: East Lake, Oakley, Minikahda, Interlachen, Metacomet, Congress Lake and Youngstown to name a few. It is my understanding his work at Glen View and Midlothian was relatively minor. Who do your records show designed Hinsdale?

[Tom MacWood]

Warren Valley which is two 18s today with an old 18 hole Ross course as their core isn't listed.  Western, another old Detroit club isn't listed.  St Claire CC ( I think it is now called its original name of St Clair River CC) is another club I know fairly well that isn't listed.

Its also interesting that Franklin Hills seems to be called Franklin Woods - in Detroit.  The place names for this listing could cause a lot of confusion because some are inaccurate.  

Ciao

Sean
I think with a little digging one could find the reason (or reasons) why those three courses were not listed. I do know the Tufts Archives has no plans for those three courses, which is odd considering they are all dated to the 20s.

[David Smolensky]

When I joined Kenosha CC in 1987 I was told that it was 1 of 2 Ross courses in Wisconsin.  The other was Oconomowoc CC.  Our members were quick to point out that KCC was the only Ross course in WI that Ross actually made a site visit.  KCC Board minutes state that the Board authorized a payment to Ross reimbursing him for travel expenses to Kenosha.  For many years there appeared to be no evidence that Ross ever set foot on OCC.  Then following the 1995 OCC restoration and remodeling of their clubhouse a hall tribute to Ross was erected which indicated that the architect had been on site.  It seems curious that in 1929 Ross still had not included OCC in his body of work.

Regards
SMO
“World’s Fastest Golfer”

[Dave Maberry]

Jason Topp,
 The lists are identical. From original post the only thing missing is title page.
Dave

[TEPaul]

"I believe the changes to Whitemarsh Valley were a little more comprehensive than you realize and Whitemarsh was a superior and more well known golf course than Orlando (before and after)."


Whitemarsh Valley obviously was considered to be a more well known golf course than Orlando CC but first of all, I'm not so sure you could possibly know what I realize Ross changes to Whitemarsh Valley were because I don't believe I've ever talked about them on here or to you. Secondly, Ross's contribution to Whitemarsh Valley might be more complicated than you have ever realized and what really happened there with Ross might be indicated to some extent by that example of Ross claiming 27 holes at Aronimink when we all know only 18 were ever built (of course Ross did do drawings for the third nine that was never built which the club has).  

I have Ross's plans for changes to Whitemarsh Valley but interestingly those Ross drawings came to us in that box of William Flynn's entire career drawings that were found in a barn in Bucks Co. where they had been for over fifty years. It would seem that Whitemarsh Valley must have hired Ross to draw some proposed changes but instead decided to go with William Flynn and that is probably why Ross's drawings for Whitemarsh Valley ended up in that box in that barn in Bucks Co containing almost all Flynn's career drawings.

That is also how we found Raynor's whole course design drawing for The Creek Club which Flynn made some changes to around 1926-1929!