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Tom MacWood

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Ross's courses
« on: September 27, 2009, 10:15:17 PM »
These are the golf courses that Donald Ross claimed in an advertising pamphlet. It is not dated, but based upon the courses listed it must have come out around 1929 or 1930, very near the end of his career.

Michael Huber

Re: Ross's courses
« Reply #1 on: September 27, 2009, 10:42:38 PM »
Is allegheny country club (pa) no longer in existance, or did it change names?

very cool post, btw.

Duane Sharpe

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Re: Ross's courses
« Reply #2 on: September 27, 2009, 10:51:09 PM »
I believe he also worked on St. Charles Golf and Country Club in Winnipeg as well as Pine ridge in Winnipeg.
They are not listed on there.

Jon Heise

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Re: Ross's courses
« Reply #3 on: September 27, 2009, 11:22:43 PM »
Isnt this the piece from the Tufts Archives that some here used to show that Southern Pines was in fact a Ross a couple years ago?
I still like Greywalls better.

Tom MacWood

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Re: Ross's courses
« Reply #4 on: September 27, 2009, 11:40:43 PM »
I believe he also worked on St. Charles Golf and Country Club in Winnipeg as well as Pine ridge in Winnipeg.
They are not listed on there.

From my study of the courses he listed, if a course had subsequently been remodeled, as was the case with St. Charles by Mackenzie, Ross would not list it. Bob O'Link is not listed either. He only listed pure Ross designs, in fact he did not list courses designed by his associates. When and what did Ross do at Pine Ridge?

Eric Smith

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Re: Ross's courses
« Reply #5 on: September 27, 2009, 11:45:26 PM »
I wonder why Chattanooga Golf and CC isn't listed.  Didn't it open in 1896 as a Ross design?

Chris Buie

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Re: Ross's courses
« Reply #6 on: September 28, 2009, 12:09:06 AM »
I'm pretty sure Ross didn't come to the States until 1899.

Tom MacWood

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Re: Ross's courses
« Reply #7 on: September 28, 2009, 05:52:25 AM »
Allegheny is still around.

http://www.alleghenycountryclub.com/

The Tufts archives does have this little booklet.

TEPaul

Re: Ross's courses
« Reply #8 on: September 28, 2009, 05:54:27 AM »
Perhaps it's a small distinction or perhaps it's just the timing of the pamphlet (app. 1930?) but in at least one case his advertising pamphlet listed 27 holes for one golf club when in fact only 18 holes were built.

He also doesn't seem to list a number of municipal courses often attributed to him (were most of them done by his associates only?). This pamphlet is probably another good reason why Norristown Pa's Jeffersonville should be attributed to J.B. McGovern (Ross's Pa associate) just as Mrs Morrison, McGovern's daughter, has always said. It may also be another indication that Aronimink's original multi-set bunkers (claimed in an early Aronimink tournament program to be similar to Jeffersonville's) were J.B McGoven idea (McGovern was a member and on the green committee of Aronimink GC) and why Ross's own Aronimink "field drawings" called for singles in the same places the "multi-sets" were originally built.

PS:
This pertains to an Aronimink thread on this website some years ago when in the last 6-7 years the club elected to restore Ross's "field drawing" single bunkers even if the course apparently was not built that way and never had those single Ross "field drawing" bunkers until approximately 2002-3! A most interesting architectural evolution indeed!  ;)
« Last Edit: September 28, 2009, 06:05:43 AM by TEPaul »

Phil_the_Author

Re: Ross's courses
« Reply #9 on: September 28, 2009, 05:55:37 AM »
Duane,

From the St. Charles website:

  A group of 23 prominent businessman gathered in 1904 to organize a country club outside the city of Winnipeg. In 1905, construction began on the clubhouse and a golf course, laid out by Tom Bendelow, seven miles west of the city on the banks of the Assiniboine River.

Before the year ended, the club had entertained the Governor-General of Canada, Earl Grey, and one of its members, Douglas Laird, had scored the first hole-in-one. It was an auspicious beginning to what would become an outstanding institution in the sporting and social life of the community.

The country club pioneered polo in Manitoba, hosting teams from Canada and the U.S. Croquet, steeple-chasing, tennis, cricket and trapshooting were also popular. But golf became the preference of members.

In 1919, world-famous course architect Donald Ross was brought to St. Charles to rebuild the original eighteen holes, the Ross Nine and the Woods Nine.

High mounds and steep slopes around bunkers and greens distinguish St. Charles, as they do more than 100 other Ross-designed courses.

Another renowned architect, Dr. Alister MacKenzie, famous for his designs at Royal Melbourne in Australia and Cypress Point in California, was hired in 1929 to layout the MacKenzie Nine. It opened in 1931, and the MacKenzie hallmark of blending the course into the natural terrain was incorporated into St. Charles.

It has been the Club's constant desire to maintain quality and improvements have been made through the years by noted Canadian architects Stanley Thompson, Norman Woods and Bill Robinson.

Tom MacWood

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Re: Ross's courses
« Reply #10 on: September 28, 2009, 06:13:26 AM »
There is some question if Southern Pines ever finished their 36 holes too. It appears they were under construction, but I don't believe the last nine was finished. 1929/1930 was a pretty rough period. I wonder if that had something to do with the third nine at Aronomink not being built.

TEPaul

Re: Ross's courses
« Reply #11 on: September 28, 2009, 06:19:31 AM »
"I wonder if that had something to do with the third nine at Aronomink not being built."


I do not know specifically why the third nine of Aronimink was not built (even though it was designed). I'm not sure if the club even knows but I do know who to ask. My point was Ross listed in that pamphlet nine holes that were not built at the time which would seemingly indicate his pamphlet also included "designs" and not necessarily "finished products."
« Last Edit: September 28, 2009, 06:26:16 AM by TEPaul »

Tom MacWood

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Re: Ross's courses
« Reply #12 on: September 28, 2009, 06:23:43 AM »
TEP
That was a pretty common practice. Colt and Mackenzie had similar pamphlets and listed major projects that were either on the drawing board or in the early phases of construction.

TEPaul

Re: Ross's courses
« Reply #13 on: September 28, 2009, 06:29:28 AM »
"TEP
That was a pretty common practice."


I'm sure it was and it certainly makes sense. It does raise perhaps a pretty interesting point however-----eg some of these clubs back then may've just been buying designs from some of these architects and not necessarily the construction contracting of them.

My own course, GMGC (1916-1919) seems to have been that way. Ross certainly did our design but it appears the construction contracting of it and the day to day oversight of it was left to one of our members, a man by the name of Weston Hibbs. He actually lived in the pre-existing farmhouse we used as our clubhouse in the very early years during the course's construction years of 1916-1919.

Matter of fact, the original greenkeeper (grow-in guy?) of Aronimink lived in the same old farmhouse that is still today the maintenance office (John Goesslin's office). I know this because J.B. McGovern's daughter, Mrs Morrison told me so. The greenskeeper's daughter was her best friend. She remembers Donald Ross very well! She is the only person I'm aware of today who actually met Ross and knew him with the possble exception of Pete Dye. She said he was to her something like a favorite uncle and she even said that he stuck his thumbs in his vest all the time as we can see in a few of the old photographs of him. Ross's daughter, Lillian, lived above Ross's Wynnewood office as a newly-wed.
« Last Edit: September 28, 2009, 06:45:15 AM by TEPaul »

Sean_A

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Re: Ross's courses
« Reply #14 on: September 28, 2009, 06:39:39 AM »
I know there has been a lot of talk about what was or wasn't a Ross course and I do notice a few courses missing on the list.  However, isn't it reasonable to give Ross credit for work done by his associates under the Ross company name?  This business of trying to divide out exactly who did what seems a bit ott to me.  Now, there are times when it is clear that one chap is in charge of an area (like Alison for example) and that he should be given at least co credit unless he is already a partner rather than an associate.  Afterall, the guy who signs the cheques the is the boss and he takes the good with the bad because he either implicitly or explicitly "signs off" on work.  

One of the courses I was looking for was Rogell in Detroit.  Its always labeled a Ross and built around 1921 - a generally very busy time for Ross in Michigan.

Tom P

Wasn't the tiered service Ross offered well known? 

Ciao
« Last Edit: September 28, 2009, 06:41:15 AM by Sean Arble »
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

TEPaul

Re: Ross's courses
« Reply #15 on: September 28, 2009, 06:56:02 AM »
Sean Arble:

As far as I'm concerned design credit going to Ross or some of his "associates" such as McGovern and Hatch (listed on that pamphlet as associates) can be looked at however one wants to look at it.

The point is Ross had a remarkably intergrated company for that early time (some say up to 3,000 people on the payroll at one time or another----eg apparently in the mid 1920s when he had more projects going in a single year than at any other time).

Jeffersonville GC in Norristown Pa may be a good indicator of this kind of thing. The club now lists the course as a Ross design, but McGovern's daughter has always claimed that her father, J.B. McGovern, designed it and built it. I'm sure she is probably right about that but that does not mean it was not part of Donald Ross's company because McGovern was one of his associates and Jeffersonville did eventually find some pay receipts for the course in an attic that were to the Donald Ross company.

Phil McDade

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Re: Ross's courses
« Reply #16 on: September 28, 2009, 08:16:24 AM »
Tom:

I don't see Oconomowoc CC in Wisconsin listed in your pamphlet/ad; I've always seen it listed as only one of two Ross courses (Kenosha CC the other) in Wisconsin. Michael J. Fay's "Golf, As it was Meant to be Played" also lists Oconomowoc as a Ross.

This is from the club's website:

History of Oconomowoc Golf Club

The Country Club of Oconomowoc opened as a nine-hole golf course in 1896, on the East end of an estate on the north shore of Lac La Belle. This new club served as a summer getaway to many of the area millionaires. In the early 1900’s, a large portion of the membership desired to increase the golf course to 18 holes. However, the expansion was not desired by all, resulting in a membership split. After surviving some financial difficulty, the Country Club of Oconomowoc was acquired by a group and renamed it the Lac LaBelle Golf Club.

One of the drawbacks of The Country Club of Oconomowoc (Lac LaBelle CC) was the lengthy carriage ride many members endured traveling from their lake home to the club. In 1909 five men assembled and financed a new golf club to be located on Highway P. John Watkins Mariner (1868-130) led this small group with his previous golf course experience, which involved the promotion of the seven-hole Folsom Avenue Golf Course in Milwaukee in 1894. He hired the famous golf course designer Donald Ross from Scotland. The land, which the finance group purchased, included the Timmel, Thompson and Wilbur farms. The Wilbur farmhouse would eventually become the clubhouse. The original bill for the construction of the new Oconomowoc Golf Club and the fee for Donald Ross were believed to be around $50,000. Several severe rainstorms washed out the newly constructed greens and increased the construction costs. Mariner recruited enough new members to refinance, allowing the project to continue. The construction of the course was completed in 1915. The Oconomowoc Golf Club opened for business in 1916.

During the next several decades, the membership remained small and content. World War II forced several changes to the Oconomowoc Golf Club. Several members were called “to duty” and the membership was also still feeling the effects of the Great Depression. In order to overcome this period, the Oconomowoc Golf Club closed the back 9 golf holes. These holes were allowed to grow wild. The turf on the back 9 greens was removed and relocated to a member’s neighboring farm and kept. In the later 1940’s, the green sod was replaced and the back 9 holes mowed and maintained.

During the early 1950’s, the original clubhouse was becoming old and deficient. The construction of a new clubhouse began as a result of a bet between two of the club’s wealthier members. Shortly after the initial digging of the site, the member passed away, leaving all personal finance to his wife. The construction of the new clubhouse halted. For almost 10 years the Oconomowoc Golf Club included a traditional Donald Ross golf course and a “hole”. In the early 1960’s, George Johnson proceeded to complete the clubhouse construction. In 1962, the new clubhouse would open on the highest elevation in Waukesha County thus producing a beautiful view of the surrounding area.

Although the famous Donald Ross designed the golf course, it was not well known among the membership until the late 1970’s. The promotion of the Donald Ross design began with the discovery of an original 1915 Donald Ross blue print of the golf course design. A golf course restoration began in 1995 under the direction of Craig Schreiner. The Renovation Master Plan was an essential tool in helping restore the character of the 1916 Donald Ross design. The renovation involved the restoring of all greens, tee, fairways and sand bunkers. The renovations were designed to not only restore the original intent, but also provide the golfing challenge consistent with today’s maintenance and golf equipment advancements.


Tom MacWood

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Re: Ross's courses
« Reply #17 on: September 28, 2009, 10:04:29 AM »
I know there has been a lot of talk about what was or wasn't a Ross course and I do notice a few courses missing on the list.  However, isn't it reasonable to give Ross credit for work done by his associates under the Ross company name?  This business of trying to divide out exactly who did what seems a bit ott to me.  Now, there are times when it is clear that one chap is in charge of an area (like Alison for example) and that he should be given at least co credit unless he is already a partner rather than an associate.  Afterall, the guy who signs the cheques the is the boss and he takes the good with the bad because he either implicitly or explicitly "signs off" on work.  

One of the courses I was looking for was Rogell in Detroit.  Its always labeled a Ross and built around 1921 - a generally very busy time for Ross in Michigan.


Sean
I think it is reasonable to give Ross credit for courses done by his associates, but apparently Ross didn't see it that way. I don't know why Rogell is not listed but I suspect there is a very good reason. Two well-known Ross courses in Ohio are not on the list either - Westbrook CC in Mansfield and Lancaster CC. Both clubs have maps hanging in their clubhouses, and Walter Hatch is the author of both of them.

Tom MacWood

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Re: Ross's courses
« Reply #18 on: September 28, 2009, 10:08:47 AM »

It does raise perhaps a pretty interesting point however-----eg some of these clubs back then may've just been buying designs from some of these architects and not necessarily the construction contracting of them.


Willie Park-II, Colt and Mackenzie all made note of courses they designed but did not build on their similar listings; I assume making the point you can always guarantee quality when courses are constructed by outside agents. So there is good reason to believe Ross had similar perspective, and perhaps even more stringent attitude, by refusing to even list those courses.

Tom MacWood

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Re: Ross's courses
« Reply #19 on: September 28, 2009, 10:11:31 AM »
Phil
The history you quoted makes me wonder exactly what Ross did for Oconomowoc. I suspect there is a very good reason why he did not include it.

Mark Pritchett

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Re: Ross's courses
« Reply #20 on: September 28, 2009, 10:23:42 AM »
Eric,

I believe Ross did the Chattanooga work in the 1920's just as he did Augusta CC, even though both clubs were established in the 1800's. 

Mark

Phil McDade

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Re: Ross's courses
« Reply #21 on: September 28, 2009, 10:40:03 AM »
Phil
The history you quoted makes me wonder exactly what Ross did for Oconomowoc. I suspect there is a very good reason why he did not include it.

Which is.....?

If this list is one of the primary reasons you cite for Watson vs. Ross' design at White Bear YC, why should it not then be used as a source for Ross' design of Oconomowoc?

Tyler Kearns

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Re: Ross's courses
« Reply #22 on: September 28, 2009, 10:40:53 AM »
When and what did Ross do at Pine Ridge?

Pine Ridge was originally designed by Tom Bendelow, and Ross produced a renovation plan in 1919. He did not drastically alter the original routing, although he amalgamated 4 holes into 2, and built 2 brand new holes. Ross devised a new bunkering scheme for the course, his plan calling for 106 new bunkers in addition to 6 new greens and 11 sets of tees.

TK

TEPaul

Re: Ross's courses
« Reply #23 on: September 28, 2009, 02:16:35 PM »
Why doesn't that pamphlet list the CC of Orlando? I believe they think they have a Ross course, but maybe they're mistaken too.   ???

There seem to be 10 or a dozen more courses in Florida that also think they are Ross courses. Are they all mistaken or is there some reason that pamphlet just didn't list a number of courses Ross was involved with?

Maybe Ross decided to just list the courses he thought might get the most respect in an advertizing pamphlet.

Dave Maberry

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Re: Ross's courses
« Reply #24 on: September 28, 2009, 03:40:44 PM »
Tom,
 This is copy of 12 page booklet which is dated 1930 on page 1. This booklet is available at Tuft's Archives and has shown up from time to time on here. It was used in effort to prove Southern Pine's lineage at this blog following Rich Mandell's Pinehurst book:

http://donaldrossmystery.blogspot.com/feeds/posts/default

Dave

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