[Mark Pearce]

As luck would have it, I shall be playing Rye this afternoon (with Rich, as further fortune dictates).  I will be interested to compare it to Swinley.  I would say that of the Colt courses mentioned, Swinley is not close to Muirfield. I prefer Alwoodley (just) but then it isn't a Colt...

[Tom MacWood]

Rye is a Colt course (actually it was a Colt & Douglas Rolland course), but it is a heavily altered Colt course, so I'm not sure a comparison would be relevant. The present course at Rye is a combination of Colt, Rolland, Clement Archer, Tom Simpson, Sir Guy Campbell, and Major HC Tippett, and I may have missed another name. Even Bernard Darwin had a hand in one of the holes.

[Scott Warren]

I thought I recalled reading that last week at the clubhouse, Tom, the suggestion was that it was far from a purebreed "Colt".

EDIT - From the World Atlas of Golf: "Only two holes remain from (Colt's) original 1895 design: the 5th and the 16th."

And from the Confidential Guide:

"Most amazing to me is the fact that the present course was pieced together over the generations, to inlcuse the best ideas of several different designers.  Of the best holes, only the present 5th and 16th were the same in Colt's original plan.  The short par 4 9th was part of Tom Simpson's 1932 plan to make the course safe from the Camber road; the difficult 4th and 8th, the ideas of Sir Guy Campbell in 1938; and the short 2nd and 7th holes were built by the secretary and the greenkeeper after the Second World War".

[Sean_A]

On a somewhat related note, why do the big London courses tend to have so may great par 3's and relatively few really good par 4's and 5's?

Woking seems to be the big exception to that. It's strength is its par 4's. Perhaps Sunny Old and New are also exceptions. Or am I missing something?

Bob

 

Bob

There are plenty of good par 4s in London. 

Tommy Mac

Rye is most definitely not a Colt course.  There is so little of Colt left, plus the man didn't design a heck of a lot at Rye.  He was an assistant for Douglas.  This myth that Rye s a Colt is one of the biggest scams around.

Ciao

[Paul_Turner]

On a somewhat related note, why do the big London courses tend to have so may great par 3's and relatively few really good par 4's and 5's?

Woking seems to be the big exception to that. It's strength is its par 4's. Perhaps Sunny Old and New are also exceptions. Or am I missing something?

Bob

  

Bob

There are plenty of good par 4s in London.  

Tommy Mac

Rye is most definitely not a Colt course.  There is so little of Colt left, plus the man didn't design a heck of a lot at Rye.  He was an assistant for Douglas.  This myth that Rye s a Colt is one of the biggest scams around.

Ciao

Sean, no need to exaggerate.  There's still some Colt left.   Roughly as much as any other designer.

And he was the main man for the original Rye course and always claimed it, as an original design by the firm, in his advertisements.  

[Sean_A]

On a somewhat related note, why do the big London courses tend to have so may great par 3's and relatively few really good par 4's and 5's?

Woking seems to be the big exception to that. It's strength is its par 4's. Perhaps Sunny Old and New are also exceptions. Or am I missing something?

Bob

  

Bob

There are plenty of good par 4s in London.  

Tommy Mac

Rye is most definitely not a Colt course.  There is so little of Colt left, plus the man didn't design a heck of a lot at Rye.  He was an assistant for Douglas.  This myth that Rye s a Colt is one of the biggest scams around.

Ciao

Sean, no need to exaggerate.  There's still some Colt left.   Roughly as much as any other designer.

And he was the main man for the original Rye course and always claimed it, as an original design by the firm, in his advertisements.  

Paul

Come on man.  First off, we don't really know what Colt took from the original course.  We know he kept stuff, but in either case, it isn't at all certain that Colt was the designer of that course.  Second, the routing today is totally different from Colt's proper course.  I do think a few holes probably survive; 12 , 15 and 16.  Perhaps several green sites as well though played from different directions.  Its difficult to know, but maybe as many as seven additional green sites may be from Colt's course, but I think two are likely; #s 5 & 13.  Its very, very scanty evidence to be proclaiming Rye a Colt course. 

Ciao

[Tom MacWood]

Paul

Come on man.  First off, we don't really know what Colt took from the original course.  We know he kept stuff, but in either case, it isn't at all certain that Colt was the designer of that course.  Second, the routing today is totally different from Colt's proper course.  I do think a few holes probably survive; 12 , 15 and 16.  Perhaps several green sites as well though played from different directions.  Its difficult to know, but maybe as many as seven additional green sites may be from Colt's course, but I think two are likely; #s 5 & 13.  Its very, very scanty evidence to be proclaiming Rye a Colt course.  

Ciao

Sean
We don't know what Colt took from the original course? Its well documented Colt & Rolland laid out the original course.

"It was 1893 that I went to live at St. Leonards, and at Christmas time of that year it was suggested that a golf course should be made at Rye. A very keen golfer, but by no means a great payer, was Sutherland Graeme. He came to me about taking part in the establishment of the Club, and Ogilvie Fairlie, who was staying with me at the time, came to our assistance, with the well-know architect, Oldred Scott, whose eldest son was my greatest friend at Cambridge. We combined with several local people, and we were fortunate enough to get Douglas Rolland as our first professional. I had the privilege of laying out the course with him, which was not a very difficult matter, as the ground is so beautifully suitable for golf." ~~ HS Colt

[Paul_Turner]

On a somewhat related note, why do the big London courses tend to have so may great par 3's and relatively few really good par 4's and 5's?

Woking seems to be the big exception to that. It's strength is its par 4's. Perhaps Sunny Old and New are also exceptions. Or am I missing something?

Bob

  

Bob

There are plenty of good par 4s in London.  

Tommy Mac

Rye is most definitely not a Colt course.  There is so little of Colt left, plus the man didn't design a heck of a lot at Rye.  He was an assistant for Douglas.  This myth that Rye s a Colt is one of the biggest scams around.

Ciao

Sean, no need to exaggerate.  There's still some Colt left.   Roughly as much as any other designer.

And he was the main man for the original Rye course and always claimed it, as an original design by the firm, in his advertisements.  

Paul

Come on man.  First off, we don't really know what Colt took from the original course.  We know he kept stuff, but in either case, it isn't at all certain that Colt was the designer of that course.  Second, the routing today is totally different from Colt's proper course.  I do think a few holes probably survive; 12 , 15 and 16.  Perhaps several green sites as well though played from different directions.  Its difficult to know, but maybe as many as seven additional green sites may be from Colt's course, but I think two are likely; #s 5 & 13.  Its very, very scanty evidence to be proclaiming Rye a Colt course. 

Ciao

Sean

I wasn't proclaiming that the current Rye is a "Colt" course.  Just took issue with this re the original 18  "plus the man didn't design a heck of a lot at Rye.  He was an assistant for Douglas Rolland"

From what I can work out, the current Rye is:

1 Campbell
2 Tippett
3 Simpson
4 Campbell
5 Colt
6 Campbell
7 Tippett
8 Campbell
9 Simpson
10 Campbell
11 Colt (different angle to tee shot)
12 Colt
13 Colt/Archer (Archer moved the green over the ridge)
14 Campbell
15 Colt
16 Colt (again different angle for tee shot)
17 Simpson
18 Colt (Simpson shifted tee away from Soup Bowl)

[Paul_Turner]

On a somewhat related note, why do the big London courses tend to have so may great par 3's and relatively few really good par 4's and 5's?

Woking seems to be the big exception to that. It's strength is its par 4's. Perhaps Sunny Old and New are also exceptions. Or am I missing something?

Bob

 

Yes you're missing something!

[Lynn_Shackelford]

From someone who has played both, did the redo of the 4th a few years back come out okay?  When I played it, they were growing it in and I had my doubts about it still being as good as Ran noted in his review.
It is different than Muirfield, hard to compare those, but IMHO better than Rye.  I love the 3's at SF, love the clubhouse and the views of #1 and #18.

[Paul_Turner]

I guess I'll have to defend her.  All repeated tosh that it's only a great club.

It's a great course and perhaps the best of the London heaths.  Loads of variety in green sites and shots to play.  Completely disagree with Rich that this isn't a course you would rush out and play another 18.   Also disagree that the par 4s aren't particularly strong, again lots of variety in length, shape, hazards and green sites.

The 9th is one of the best par 4s.  Pretty absurd to think this is a silly hole. The heather banks jutting out on the right predate the course.

Paul

Do you really think the par 4s are special for Colt?  I didn't get the impression they were any better than those at Harborne or Whittington Heath - two courses off the map for rankings.  Though #12 is very fine.  

Plus, the fives at SF aren't special.  I like #15, but it isn't all that and in fact it probably works better as a brutal par 4 with the tees well up because the turn of the fairway would require a very good drive to enable the golfer to get home in two.

Ciao

Sean

Back to Swinley.

I'll try and be specific because the criticisms so far have been either vague or trivial.  My guess is that many expect an easy round at Swinley but get beaten up.

I think Swinley's par 4s and 5s are certainly stronger than those at Whittington and Harborne.  The course in general has the boldness of Harborne but on a grander scale so it's more spectacular than Harborne and WH.  And the green complexes, detail work and green sites are better at Swinley than either course.

I'll steal some of Matthew Delahunty's and Frank Pont's pics to show why I think the green complexes are so good and take some playing:

The 1st is such a cool green particularly if the pin is on the right.  I wonder if it has shrunk from the swales in front.

2nd green runs away

3rd semi plateau

Great natural site for the 9th

Driveable 11th with another beautiful green.  Lots of borrow in this one.

Humpy 12th

Close to grade at the 14th

Pretty severe green on 15th at the hill top.

Severe false front 16th

The shelf 18th green with its kinks.

But it's not just the green complexes.  The holes fall beautifully over the land...the 9th is perfect for a dog leg left hole:


And there's old fashioned quirk too.  6th with bunker that are subtly short of the green and the 7th with its great cross bunker that makes the green feel closer than it is:




And a final plus.  Swinley has plenty of beautiful views too, my favourite is from around the 7th green:



Man....this image width limit on the new site is frustrating!

[Sean_A]

On a somewhat related note, why do the big London courses tend to have so may great par 3's and relatively few really good par 4's and 5's?

Woking seems to be the big exception to that. It's strength is its par 4's. Perhaps Sunny Old and New are also exceptions. Or am I missing something?

Bob

  

Bob

There are plenty of good par 4s in London.  

Tommy Mac

Rye is most definitely not a Colt course.  There is so little of Colt left, plus the man didn't design a heck of a lot at Rye.  He was an assistant for Douglas.  This myth that Rye s a Colt is one of the biggest scams around.

Ciao

Sean, no need to exaggerate.  There's still some Colt left.   Roughly as much as any other designer.

And he was the main man for the original Rye course and always claimed it, as an original design by the firm, in his advertisements.  

Paul

Come on man.  First off, we don't really know what Colt took from the original course.  We know he kept stuff, but in either case, it isn't at all certain that Colt was the designer of that course.  Second, the routing today is totally different from Colt's proper course.  I do think a few holes probably survive; 12 , 15 and 16.  Perhaps several green sites as well though played from different directions.  Its difficult to know, but maybe as many as seven additional green sites may be from Colt's course, but I think two are likely; #s 5 & 13.  Its very, very scanty evidence to be proclaiming Rye a Colt course.  

Ciao

Sean

I wasn't proclaiming that the current Rye is a "Colt" course.  Just took issue with this re the original 18  "plus the man didn't design a heck of a lot at Rye.  He was an assistant for Douglas Rolland"

From what I can work out, the current Rye is:

1 Campbell
2 Tippett
3 Simpson
4 Campbell
5 Colt
6 Campbell
7 Tippett
8 Campbell
9 Simpson
10 Campbell
11 Colt (different angle to tee shot)
12 Colt
13 Colt/Archer (Archer moved the green over the ridge)
14 Campbell
15 Colt
16 Colt (again different angle for tee shot)
17 Simpson
18 Colt (Simpson shifted tee away from Soup Bowl)

Paul  Here is my take

#5 is a completely different hole to Colt's course using the same green site.

#10 has a different green up into the gorse bushes.  The old green was short of the bushes.

#13 has a vastly different different teeing area changing the hole completely.  If Archer put the green on the far side of the ridge, then this isn't a Colt hole at all.

Anyway, my only point was that we can't call Rye a Colt course even if we accept that Colt was THE man responsible for the first course.  Its a proper mish mash and perhaps all the better for it.  Mind you, I do think Colt was exceptional when working on courses that weren't originally his.  


Tommy Mac

Many people give Douglas a lot more credit than you seem to for the first course.  That was what I was getting at, but we don't know for sure who did what.  

What is really interesting about Rye is the celebrated par 3s don't seem have much to do all with Colt.  


Paul - Don't get me wrong about Swinley, I definitely think it is better than either WH or Harborne, but I think this is in large part down to the par 3s and the exceptional (as you point out) piece of land.  After seeing Rye again yesterday I definitely think Swinley is the top of the heap for short holes.  Architecturally, the fours and fives are not as a whole special to me at Swinley.  All are solid in a Ganton sort of way except for #12 which is outstanding.      

Ciao

[Paul Nash]

The other great par 4, for me, is 9.Very natural with a dogleg that is more severe than it seems on the tee. The tee shot has to be good to set up a decent second. Apart from 9, 12 is exceptional but I also love 15 - it seems very big in scale and very hard as a 4, unlike the 5 that it was until about 3 years ago.

If I had to choose, i would place a day at the Berkshire ahead of Swinley as there is more variety - but there are also probably more weak holes out of the 36 and perhaps a bit less charm.

having played all of the London heathland course except Sunningdale, they are all really nice and not a huge degree separates the best and worst or, rather, the most-to-least enjoyable. I love Hankley as its piece of land is easily the best I have ever seen for an inland golf course - I was there again in August and was just wondering what would be possible if they had the permission and money to turn the site into a 54 or even 72 hole complex - they easily have the room! Give that site to Tom Doak and Pine Valley could have a challenger

[Emil Weber]

Paul T:

Thes pics (I know they're not yours ) look absolutely fantastic. Just judging from pictures I see, SF would be the most beatiful of the heathland courses. And there seem to be some cool green complexes, too.

[Dan Boerger]

Emil -- Good call ... it's the most striking heathland course I've ever been on. As mentioned before, the par 3's are really top notch. The 4th is the best one-shotter I've played this side of PV #5.

[Gareth Williams]

Good photo's there Paul T 

The 12th hole at Swinley is - IMHO - one of finest on the course. With the exception of the 7th they are all wonderful holes and a terrific celebration of the heathland design and execution by HS Colt.

[John Mayhugh]

Bob Jenkins & I were fortunate enough to play Swinley Forest last week.  I liked the course a lot.  While it's not overall as good a golf course as Royal St. Georges, the experience there is hard to match.  It's hard for me to put into words, but the combination of forest & heathland is simply stunning. 

I thought the routing & flow of the course worked really well.  While the total yardage is short, many of the par 4s don't play that way.  There are enough short holes to help create some scoring opportunities, but plenty of places to blow up as well.  Par 3s are top tier of anything that I've seen.  I also thought that the heather mounds on 9 worked fine as replacements for bunkers.  On these shorter heathland courses, control of where your ball goes is important.

Surly staff?  Not to me.  I don't think people could have been any nicer to me if I were a member.  I felt really welcome & comfortable there.

It's hard for me to see how one could be disappointed or not thrilled by Swinley.

[Gareth Williams]

Bob Jenkins & I were fortunate enough to play Swinley Forest last week.  I liked the course a lot.  While it's not overall as good a golf course as Royal St. Georges, the experience there is hard to match.  It's hard for me to put into words, but the combination of forest & heathland is simply stunning. 

I thought the routing & flow of the course worked really well.  While the total yardage is short, many of the par 4s don't play that way.  There are enough short holes to help create some scoring opportunities, but plenty of places to blow up as well.  Par 3s are top tier of anything that I've seen.  I also thought that the heather mounds on 9 worked fine as replacements for bunkers.  On these shorter heathland courses, control of where your ball goes is important.

Surly staff?  Not to me.  I don't think people could have been any nicer to me if I were a member.  I felt really welcome & comfortable there.

It's hard for me to see how one could be disappointed or not thrilled by Swinley.

I can concur that the staff there are excellent and a credit to the club.

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