News:

Welcome to the Golf Club Atlas Discussion Group!

Each user is approved by the Golf Club Atlas editorial staff. For any new inquiries, please contact us.


Matt_Ward

Re: Oak Hills big move in GD 100
« Reply #25 on: September 24, 2009, 10:56:11 AM »
Michael:

The issue for the former 15th hole was not that it was "great" as you suggest -- but that it fit into what was there and what was intended. You are right on target -- the course is spoiled through the involvements of holes that have been plucked from a design board and then MADE to fit into a layout in which they stick out noticeably.

Let me be clear - even if the former 15th and the nature of the course in the middle of the front nine were somehow brought back to its former self -- I see Oak Hill as a next tier layout just below those of the stellar ones I mentioned previously.

Oak Hill / East has seen fit to make a pact with the devil -- as other top tier layouts believe they must -- the very nature of its core architecture and the manner by which it first made its mark -- should not be so easily jettisoned and thrown away simply for the benefit of a one week event or the ego status that certain people have when holding such events on home turf.

Oak Hill / East was accurately assigned, in my mind, by Doak when he gave the course a seven (7) in CG. For a layout to get to a #11 status, as Digest awarded the course in its most recent ratings, would require a layout that is nearly top-to-bottom vintage stuff -- no real glaring gaps or weaknesses, in all senses of the word a tour de force presentation. The consistency of the architecture is a big part of that equation -- but even if the facility returned to those past inclusions, the nature of just how great other courses are in the USA cannot be lightly mentioned - especially those that are fairly new that have come onto the scene recently. Oak Hill / East has benefited from the glare / spotlight of major championship play but for me the course engenders not deep love for the architecture but for the manner by which it can sort out the pretenders for any major title. The former for me is what demands the greater concern -- the latter is of lesser importance. At Oak Hill -- the reverse, in my mind, seems to have been the driving force behind what has happened to the East Course there.

JNC Lyon

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Oak Hills big move in GD 100
« Reply #26 on: September 24, 2009, 12:15:10 PM »
Matt and Michael:

Regarding the Fazio changes, I agree that they have done very little good other than attract more major championships.  The 15th hole is certainly the worst of the Fazio par threes.  It has no options, strategy, or decision-making.  It only requires the player to fire away with a mid-iron and hope for the best.  The green is the worst of the four Fazio creations and is, like I said, falling into the water.  It now requires a grueling walk up to the 16th tee.  It is no wonder why Ross never built the green there.  My father played the old 15th hole numerous times as a lad, and he remembers it as a great par three from both the original tee short right of the 14th green and the new tee directly to the right of the 14th green.

5 is, in my mind, not a great a hole, but it still presents a certain amount of strategy and interest.  6, while not as bad as 15, absolutely obliterates any sense of flow in the routing.  The golfer has to make a round trip of over 300 yards to play a par three that is 175 yards at its maximum.  Furthermore, the hole continues on the east-west plain of the front nine holes rather than playing into a crosswind as the original sixth did.  The original 6th was a very cool uphill par three in a classic Ross style.

Matt,  what do you see as the glaring weaknesses of the East Course outside of the trees and the Fazio holes (which everyone seems to focus on)?  The land, as I have said earlier, is absolutely phenomenal.  To continue with the comparison to Merion, Oak Hill is blessed because it possesses BOTH the micro features that are so rich at Merion and the great sweeping elevation changes.  This allowed Ross, the greatest golf course router of all time, to create a set of holes that are both grand and quaint at the same time.  Merion has great variety in the character of the land and the look of the golf holes.  But, ultimately, Merion's land features are mostly of the micro variety.  Oak Hill certainly does not match up to Oakmont or Winged Foot in the realm of parkland courses--I never stated such, but the routing and property at Oak Hill can certainly compete with those two venerable layouts, no?

Matt, I understand your objections to the tee shot on the 17th.  The landing area is significantly overtreed, and it amounts to a hit-and-hope proposition for all but the very best ballstrikers.  However, I think you are missing the half-par nature of the hole and the tradeoffs between the grueling tee shot and the thrilling second shot.  The hole is only a driver-wedge hole for the very longest hitters, meaning that it still holds its intrigue for most good players.  A 4 at 17 feels like a birdie, but a 5 feels like a bogey.  Two good shots can yield a 3 or even, as it did for Jay Haas, a 2.  The key to the hole's interest is the downhill second shot.  If you can hold off the tee, you will be rewarded with a very fun approach shot where the terrain gives the player to hit a running second shot into the green and leave a very good chance at 4.  From the 460 yardage, I have a hit a 225 tee shot to the top of the hill and then a 235 3-wood onto the back edge.  The hole is much more than a straight uphill death march of a par four.

I still fail to see the 13th as a "long slog."  Why must all par fives be reachable in two shots?  This like saying that all par fours that are not drivable are uninteresting because they only present "two-shot" scenarios.  The demands on the three shots do not result simply from narrow fairways.  The second shot is tilted significantly from right to left away from the right fairway bunkers.  This means that the player has to hit a very good second shot to reach a good position for the third shot.  Otherwise, the golfer will face one of three scenarios.  One, he will have a difficult fairway bunker shot.  Two, he will be on the left side and close to the green, but he will have to shape his approach to hit the green.  Three, he will lay back into the flat short of the bunkers and face an uphill, semi-blind mid-iron approach.  While the last is undoubtedly the best of the three options, each will make it very difficult for the golfer to control his approach shot into a green where position is at a premium.  Thus, the second shot dares the golfer to challenge the land and the bunkering to gain an advantage.  Greg Norman did this successfully at the 2008 Senior PGA Championship.  In the final round, Norman hit a very strong 3-wood second over the bunkers and into the bowled fairway some 25 yards short of the green.  He had a straightforward up and down for birdie, and it vaulted him into the thick of contest down the home stretch.  However, if Norman had failed to execute perfectly on either his perfect 3-wood tee shot (which found a flat lie at the end of the right side of the fairway) or the long second, he would have likely made a five or worse.

The 13th is not only interesting for the longer hitters.  As a good player who only drives in the 230-250 range, I will face similar tradeoffs on my second shot at the 13th.  No matter how far you hit the ball, you will face decisions at 13 due to the contours of the land, the creek, the bunkering, and, most importantly, the fantastic greensite.  The 13th is refreshing because it has stood up against technology, is not reachable in two, yet still presents great variety and options.  I will take 13th any day over a 530 par five that the top players reach with a drive and a 5-iron.

Like I said before, the Fazio holes are of great detriment to the overall layout, as are the trees that encroach on playing angles.  However, the layout uses the land given in beautiful fashion.  The terrain alone creates a tremendous amount of strategy on holes 2, 4, 7, 9, 10, 12, 13, 14, 16, and 17.  Finally, the Ross greens exude understated elegance and challenge without being unnatural, unduly severe, or visually intimidating.  For me, it is the 18 green complexes at Oak Hill East that provide the primary challenge to the best players in the world.  They may not have the steep grades or wild undulations of Oakmont or Winged Foot, but they will continually frustrate the player who places his shots incorrectly on and around the greens.
« Last Edit: September 24, 2009, 12:21:00 PM by JNC_Lyon »
"That's why Oscar can't see that!" - Philip E. "Timmy" Thomas

Matt_Ward

Re: Oak Hills big move in GD 100
« Reply #27 on: September 24, 2009, 01:14:17 PM »
JNC:

Let me give you the Cliffs notes version of my take on Oak Hill / East -- I think GD and its panelists has the place way too high. Simple as that. I have provided the rationale before so retyping similar points does really little.

Look, I don't doubt your love for the place but the connection to the club does have an impact -- right?

I also don't doubt the nature of the terrain there but take Oak Hill / East and the land Plainfield CC (NJ) occupies. The former is very good -- the latter is even better yet the layout in the Garden State is lucky to sniff a big time mention -- no doubt, the hosting of championships -- just like having a nearby ocean -- adds a number of rating points to the equation.

JNC, the issue for me is that no course can get that high a rating as the East has recently achieved via Digest with the gaps previously mentioned. The TF holes are a major pimple on a wonderful canvass. They cannot be ignored -- they need to be seen for what has happened there. The club, years ago under certain folks, decided that the allure of major championship play was a top priority -- more so than preserving what Ross originally envisioned. When you make a pact with the Devil -- you get what you seek -- you also lose a good part of your inner soul and the TF holes do that to me.

Try to realize I have never said that Oak Hill / East is not worthy of play or considerable attention. It is still among my personal top 100 USA courses but it's not near the front of the line as Digest would have people believe -- in fact, I would be hard pressed to place it among my top ten in all of NY State -- not as a demotion to Oak Hill / East but the grandeur and stellar nature of the depth of key courses within The Empire State.

p.s. The 13th is not reachable in two blows because of the forced lay-back top players have to make and the naturally softer tyrf conditions that are generally present. Remove the creek situation and have firmer turf and the big boys -- albeit only a handful -- will get there in two blows. Like I said before -- long at OH/East's 13th and compare to other long par-5's still in major event play today -- RTJ often gets little plaudits here but his 16th at Firestone South is still one of the very finest of its kind. Ditto what Tillinghast did with the 17th at Baltusrol / Lower.

In regards to the 17th we shall agree to disagree. The lengthening aspect of the hole flies in the face of the turning point you need to overcome. It's been unduly lengthened to add difficulty -- not to add compelling architecture. Great long par-4's put a premium on driving the ball to target areas that can be reasonably accessed when properly played -- I don't see the 17th at Oak Hill / East being that way for the drive demands presented. I do concur with you on the nature of the green contours -- they are well done and one of the best at the club. The issue would be to allow the hole to play a reasonable length without resorting to draconian measure -- those are what exists now in my mind but I can certainly respect your take.

Sean Leary

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Oak Hills big move in GD 100
« Reply #28 on: September 24, 2009, 01:44:40 PM »
Matt,

Have you ever listed your top 100? With the amount of courses you have played, it would certainly be interesting to see.

JNC Lyon

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Oak Hills big move in GD 100
« Reply #29 on: September 24, 2009, 02:02:17 PM »
Matt:

I would agree that Oak Hill is too high on the Golf Digest list.  The Fazio holes and the trees make the #11 ranking very distorted.  I just think these two factors should not distracted from the great architecture that is on the ground at the East Course.

I agree also that 17 plays better at 460 than at 495.  However, building a tee at 495 was positive for a couple of reasons: 

First, it simply lengthened a long hole and preserved rather than destroyed the nature of the hole.  Recently, the club built a back tee on the 4th hole of West Course.  The hole was designed and should play as a short par three at a maximum of 140 yards.  However, the new tee extends the hole to 190, which for me is a solid three iron.  This tee destroys the nature of the hole, but the one on 17 East does not. 

Second, the construction of the new tee forced the club to clear out what was formerly a jungle behind the 17th tee.  The new look is worlds better and improves the visual elements of both the 16th hole on the East Course and the 14th hole on the West Course.

The new tee may compromise the challenge of the tee shot for a shorter hitter, but then again anyone who is not a scratch golfer should not be playing from the back tees!

The creek on 13 is what it is.  You say that the removal of the creek would create, in and of itself, a reachable par five.  That is true.  However, the creek is inexorably interrelated to the land and contours that make the hole so fascinating.  Thus, your scenario of 13th hole without the creek is implausible and counterproductive to understanding the strategy and challenge of the existing golf hole.

Overall, I think we agree on many aspects of the golf course, particularly the negative impact of the trees and the Fazios (from my understanding, it was actually George Fazio who was responsible for the changes.  I've seen his informal notes on what he wanted to do to every hole, and it is seriously scary).  I would love to see a course like Plainfield, especially since it occupies similar land to Oak Hill East and has actually undertaken some restoration of the original Ross plan.  Oak Hill would benefit from learning from their example.

Matt, I agree with Sean: I would be interested to see your personal top 100.
"That's why Oscar can't see that!" - Philip E. "Timmy" Thomas

Michael Wharton-Palmer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Oak Hills big move in GD 100
« Reply #30 on: September 24, 2009, 02:55:23 PM »
JNC and Matt...
Okay..first of all..surely the whole point of number 13 is that you have a startegic hole with teh creek and the superb bunker placements for the second shot...who on hell says that all par fives should be reachable, isnt that why they are par fives?

the hole is far from  a long slog because it is so strategic, I liken it to number 15 at Pine Valley..gives you choices on where you lay up..take a gamble and you are within 100 yards play safe maybe 140...that is good planning to me.

The creek is there and should be for the benefit of the hole.....


Number 17...the new tee is the only one I have ever played, so that is the only hole I know...and shit what a tough hole.
I agree the hole palys as a par 4.5...which is fine, but the landing area does need some clearing uo tree wise...other tahn that spot, I did not find the course over treed....but then I do like lots of trees on a golf course ;D

One thing I did hear whilst there which made me shudder.....building a new green on 16 in that open area, extending the hole some 40 odd yards...of course that beautiful willow would have to go.....please tell me that is not going to happen

JNC Lyon

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Oak Hills big move in GD 100
« Reply #31 on: September 24, 2009, 04:34:22 PM »
Michael,

There has been talk for several years about moving the green back.  People claimed that Fazio's firm would be able to do an exact replica of the green.  This, of course, is impossible.  However, the plan has more or less died out.  It is highly unlikely that the green will be altered.  There was also a movement to knock down the current tee and put in a new back tee.  Well this is less unsavory than moving the green, it is not ideal.  I believe that this, too, will suffer the same fate as the plan to move the green.  The hole should remain at its current 440 yardage.  It will be a bit of respite for the pros before the final two holes.
"That's why Oscar can't see that!" - Philip E. "Timmy" Thomas

Matt_Ward

Re: Oak Hills big move in GD 100
« Reply #32 on: September 24, 2009, 05:18:20 PM »
Sean & JNC:

Fair enough -- I'll have to give it a thought.

I would not do what Digest does and list courses in numerical order from 1-100 -- likely it would be what Digest did years ago when they grouped the first 50 courses in groupings of ten and then having a second 50 for the remaining ones.

JNC:

We agree 10000% on the 16th hole -- it works well and provides the one lone good birdie opportunity for the final three holes. Let me say that the final three at Oak Hill / East are just a tiny amount behind the tenacity you find with the final three at Winged Foot / West. Let me also point out that Plainfield also had issues with the original Ross layout being tinkered with -- see the holes of #13 & #14 there as two good examples.

Oak Hill / East is a demanding layout but I just see the rush to throw under the bus the Ross original elements as a means to garner support for future major events. The membership there is first rate and no doubt the community has been always quick to support the game / club.

In regards to the 17th -- at 460 yards you balance the needs of both the top player and those just below the level. For those who are shorter hitters -- whether the hole is 460 or 498 is really not a major issue / concern since the overwhelming majority of times they will only be getting home in three shots.

I didn't like what was done to the 18th -- it was fine before -- the "new" 18th is a slave to the concept that more distance and more demands are needed. Be very interesting to see what transpires when the next major returns to the club.


Matt_Ward

Re: Oak Hills big move in GD 100
« Reply #33 on: September 26, 2009, 09:50:28 PM »
JNC_Lyon:

You mentioned the qualities of Oak Hill / West and Leatherstocking on another thread (Monroe) as solid designs in the upstate are aof NY.

Let me also point out that Crag Burn and Cobblestone Creek are also good courses and worthy of a play.

One other course that gets so little attention -- likely because Rees Jones name is attached to it -- is the stellar layout in the greater Albany area -- Olde Kinderhook. I would only hope that people who come to The Empire State would not automatically presume that only Westchester, Nassau and Suffolk countires are the only places where superior golf can be played.

Ed Oden

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Oak Hills big move in GD 100
« Reply #34 on: September 26, 2009, 09:58:37 PM »
I will do the same thing here that I did on the Monroe thread and post links to a slideshow...

http://www.flickr.com/photos/eko_gfl/sets/72157622459739822/show/

...and a set of individual photos...

http://www.flickr.com/photos/eko_gfl/sets/72157622459739822/

Again, on the second link, click on a thumbnail to bring up a picture and then on the "All Sizes" tab above it to view the photo in the largest size.

Ed

Chris Cupit

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Oak Hills big move in GD 100
« Reply #35 on: September 26, 2009, 11:08:54 PM »
I was fortunate enough to also play in the 1998 US Am at Oak Hill.  Great club, friendly people but I saw nothing that was that interesting.  A pretty, manicured parkland course that when set up for a USGA event was tough.  I actually enjoyed the west course more and thought the greens were far more interesting on that course.  For whatever it's worth and to put any of my biases out there I played well on the "big" course the east, bogeying my last four holes for 74 >:(  I then shot 79 on the "easier" west course and missed match play.

Unfortunately it rained and the course played sloppy (I was at the 1989? US Open as i was playing in the Monroe Amateur and we stopped by and if I remember correctly the course was pretty "flooded" then as well.)

Anyway, the course had some really good holes--I liked #1 which was a nerve wracking start, neat par 4 #2, solid par three #3 and I really liked the first par 5 #4 I think.  I don't remember much about 5-8 but I really liked #9.

Sorry but I think Matt's description of #13 as a long slog is dead on.  Lay-up, lay-up, wedge.  Ho-hum and I fail to see any startegy whatsoever in that.  Execute two lay ups and have a wedge.  It was like playing down a bowling alley ???  Certainly if you missed the fairway at any point you were in trouble but is that strategic?  The hill of fame thing seemed a little hokey but I'm not into that kind of thing.  There seemed to me no advantage to being left, right or center off the tee or for the second shot--ANYWHERE in the fairway was  fine.  Granted maybe this was accentuated because of the soft conditions and maybe when firm and fast there is more strategy but  I missed it in '98.

I thought 14 was a good hole.  Drive was a little blah as it was a three iron with little trouble if I rememer correctly but the second shot was all world--steeply unphill, huge fronting bunker and the knowledge that long was instant death!  A "get your attention" wedge shot.

#15 was a pretty standard par three-nothing unique.

#16  I liked this hole.  I really liked the second shot--green just seemed to set in the land nicely and it fit my eye.

#17  440ish when I played but a really awkward drive.  Eith had to hit it way over the trees about 290, hit a really big cut shot or lay up with a three wood.  I only saw the second shot from the trees but had I been near the fairway it looked like a strong shot ;)

#18  When I first saw it I wasn't sure I liked the green perched up and basicly protected by a big band of thick rough but the hole played much better than I thought it would.  Tough drive but there is plenty of room for a long hole and while I can't remember any details I liked the approach shot and green.

Quite honestly though, If you are in Rochester and were looking for a fun day of golf I'd send you over to Pittsford (Monroe GC)--a true hidden gem in my mind :)

Tags:
Tags:

An Error Has Occurred!

Call to undefined function theme_linktree()
Back