[Phil_the_Author]

Ever consider the irony of how the game of golf which prides itself on honor to the extent of rules being self-inforced has, as one iof its biggest problems, players who aren't honest enough with themselves to play from the tees that best suit their game?

[Richard Choi]

OK, now I am confused.

I though the consensus in the clubhouse was that par is just a number and it really shouldn't matter?

So what if ANGC is 7600 yards? It is not like there are 300 yard carries everywhere. If you set your par at 82 instead of 72,  most scratch golfers are going to fare just fine.

Obviously, in Pat's case you are going to play where the host wants you to play. It is the protocol after all.

However, if I was a member at ANGC, I am going to play at whatever tee I have most fun in. I don't care if that is 7600 yards. As long as I set proper expectactions it should be just fine.

[Peter Pallotta]

Richard - yes indeed, the 'par is just a number' theory seems to get refuted in practice a heck of a lot around here.

Pat - I use a rule of thumb that usually works pretty well. If in the first couple of holes I put my drive in or around a fairway bunker, I know I'm playing the right set of tees. If with a decent (for me) drive I find that I'm clearing fairway hazards by a goodly margin, I move back. I rarely have to move up, as I'm pretty self-conscious about playing tees/yardages that I know are too hard for me.

Peter  

[David_Elvins]

Patrick,

I am surprised you used Augusta National as an example. 

Wouldn't the wide fairways, lack of forced carries off tees and lack of spots to lose a ball mean that an average golfer could play off the back tees and play a quick round with out being taken out of their comfort zone? 

[Brent Hutto]

Sounds like just another step in the reification of the idiotic Handicap Index. That silly number already holds more sway over the game than it could possibly merit, why elevate it further still. It has nothing at all to do with what tees one "should" be playing, if you can even talk about a "should" in the first place.

[Ken Moum]

As a ludicrously crooked and short-hitting single-digit handicapper, I am always amused by the assumptions involved in a discussion like this.

I average about 205 off the tee while hitting about 7 fairways a round, and carry a 7.something index, based almost entirely on scores at my home course, a Ross that measures 6332 (par 71) from the tees I play.

I will do almost anything to avoid playing a course longer than that when travelling, because it simply isn't any fun.

Hell, my home course isn't a whole lot of fun for me on day like yesterday when there was overnight rain, and long rough with heavy dew. I hit ONE green regulation, and only managed to shoot an 80 because I had 14 one putts.

Given the choice between 5900, and 6500, I go short almost every time.

But I play with a friend whose handicap if close to mine, but his game is the antihesis of mine. He's 70 yards longer off the tee, and a generally good iron player.  But while I get better and better as I get closer to the hole, he gets worse. Nothing strikes fear in his heart as much as a 30-yard pitch.

He loves playing 6700- to 6800-yard courses with generous fairways and big greens.

I love playing 6000-yard courses with generous fairways, no forced carries, and little greens.

I know I mentioned it here before, but the only "formula" I have ever seen that makes sense for a significant percentage of golfers is to mutiply your five-iron distance by 36.  For me that's 5950, and for my friend it's about 6850, for Tour pros it's about 7400.

Like any "formula," this one has to be applied with caution, because there are so many exceptions, but I still think it's a decnet place to start--f you are looking to have fun on the golf course.

Oh, and one more thing, I am pretty convinced the objections to playing different tees within a group is macho BS. I have played thousands of rounds with the women in my family, and at no time has anyone had a problem with people playing off differeing tees. We even play for money, and it doesn't bother anyone.

If you do play off different tees, it's simple to make the handicap adjustments needed to equalize the game.

But the average make ego won't let him play up when his buddies are on the back tees. I have mostly gotten over it, but it's still there--a least a little bit.

Ken

[Patrick_Mucci]

Patrick,

I am surprised you used Augusta National as an example. 

Wouldn't the wide fairways, lack of forced carries off tees and lack of spots to lose a ball mean that an average golfer could play off the back tees and play a quick round with out being taken out of their comfort zone? 

Absolutely NOT.

WIDE fairways would be a myth to the high handicapper playing the back tees.
The tee shots on some holes are incredibly narrow looking ( # 7, # 11 & # 18)
In addition, few could reach the fairway with their drives.

And, there are forced carries at ANGC, they're just not over your typical ravine or water hazard.
# 18 being a perfect example, not to mention # 12 and # 16.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Sounds like just another step in the reification of the idiotic Handicap Index. That silly number already holds more sway over the game than it could possibly merit, why elevate it further still.

Brent,

Don't take this personally, but that's one of the dumbest statements I've ever seen that's related to golf.

The handicap/handicap system/handicap index is what allows two people of differing abilities to compete on an equal footing.
It's one of the things that makes golf the great game it is.
 
It's at the heart of almost every match played.

A PGA Tour professional can have a competitive match with an 18 handicap.

Try doing the same thing in Tennis

It has nothing at all to do with what tees one "should" be playing, if you can even talk about a "should" in the first place.

That's the purpose of the thread

[Sean_A]

A lot of this discussion depends on how cleverly designed the course is and how much wind is about.  I was at Rye with Pests for Buda and I didn't hear one guy complain about shortage of length with what I think were essentially 6100 tees with low to moderate wind and the course running fairly keen.  What was the difference?  The course is properly designed to challenge all length hitters.  How far one hits the ball shouldn't determine the tees played.  How well one gets himself around a golf course should be the determining factor.  IMO, even most single digit players can't get themselves around a course very well though they kid themselves they can because they compare against an 18 capper - which has nothing to do with anything.

Ciao   

[Dan Herrmann]

For fun, play your course's forward tees sometime.  If you're like most 10+ handicappers, your score won't be terribly different from your average.  Why?  Simple - we "10+" folks tend to really stink at the short game.

[Brent Hutto]

I'm not disputing the value of a handicap system. It's the USGA Handicap System that is idiotic. It induces golfers to treat every single round of their life as some sort of stroke-play competition. Or else just make up pseudo-stroke-play scores. That mindset slows down the game and has as unintended effects all sorts of bullshit and self-deception on the part of golfers.

Someone who wants to go out 50-75 times a year and play a friendly better-ball match with their usual fourball ends up keeping a totally invalid stroke play card on the side, reflecting the very hybrid of match-play and stroke-play forbidden by the Rules of Golf. With a side order of false scorekeeping, either sandbagging or the reverse.

And now you float the idea of taking the number (with a ludicrous decimal place of all things) that comes out of this mishmash and interpreting it as a criterion for what tees a player should be using. That index has precious little to do with the player's ability (how many organized games do you know of where they keep their own handicaps separate from their players' USGA indices?) and it has absolutely nothing to do with what clubs they'll be hitting into green, the relationship of their shots to the hazards designed into the course or much of anything else that bears on choosing tees.

It's silliness on top of idiocy.

[ChipRoyce]

No.  

- There is too large of a discrepancy in distances players of similar handicaps hit the ball.  I regularly play with a 5 handicap who hits it 220 Yards off the tee and other 5 handicaps that hit it 280-300. A long course can be monotonous for the short hitter (driver/fwy wood) and a short course can be monotonous for the long hitter (hybrid/wedge).

- I think it can hurt the flow of a round of golf to have people play from different tees.  

- I also think it is good for a player to use the "wrong" tees on occasion.  It stress tests different parts of your game and reveals weaknesses that may be hidden somewhat from normal tees.

In complete agreement with Jason's post

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