[Carl Rogers]

I want to discuss a specific example of how these issues come together ...

Golfer in question: Me, single digit handicapper, better at short game than long game, playing the game for 35 plus years

Location: prefer not to say

Background, A question and my experience:
Is it true that to escape (only) a bunker shot with a fairly steep 40” high bank, approximately 4” of sand is needed beneath the ball?  It is my experience that where there is no sand and only hardpan surface hard to dent with a full swing escaping the bunker is profoundly problematic. The bounce of the club ricochets off the surface resulting in a skulled shot directly into the bank.  I eventually figured out how to get out recording octuple bogey. 

I was very disturbed and thought that during the incident I could not finish the round in a stroke play event.

Please help me with following questions and issues:

1. Am I just another snot nosed spoiled American that can not accept the course as it presents itself?

2. Should I be sympathetic with the Management / Management challenges in the recession and that the last month has been very wet?

3. Should I expect a base line level of bunker maintenance that will allow escape in some manner?

4. Of course I can play elsewhere …

Please comment

[Bart Bradley]

Carl:

I have played bunkers similar to your description...unfortunately.

In my experience, such conditions do prohibit the typical "explosion" type bunker shot.

I have found that keeping the clubface square and pitching the ball out of the bunker generally works...was the bunker wall too high for this approach...

Was there any direction of escape that would be do-able with this approach?

Bart

[Joe Hancock]

You forgot question #5:

Should I use a different club when hitting out of a sand-less or hardpan bunker?

Joe

[Carl Rogers]

Bart & Joe,

Thanks, I will re-visit that bunker a try another shot type as described.  The bunker shape is similar to a coffin.

I eventually got out by advancing the perpendicular to the hole almost to the rear of the green.

[Kyle Harris]

You have no rights on the golf course - just 14 clubs and an objective.

They ask you how many, not how.

[Mike McGuire]

1. Am I just another snot nosed spoiled American that can not accept the course as it presents itself?

Yes. But there is strength in numbers. Maybe you should organize a million man - bad bunker march. Should be easy to find people. We have 50 or so at our club for a start.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Robert Randquist has written a terrific treatise on bunkers.

The three part series appears in the "Feature Interview" section.

It should be required reading for all Green Committee and Board members.

[Sean_A]

I want to discuss a specific example of how these issues come together ...

Golfer in question: Me, single digit handicapper, better at short game than long game, playing the game for 35 plus years

Location: prefer not to say

Background, A question and my experience:
Is it true that to escape (only) a bunker shot with a fairly steep 40” high bank, approximately 4” of sand is needed beneath the ball?  It is my experience that where there is no sand and only hardpan surface hard to dent with a full swing escaping the bunker is profoundly problematic. The bounce of the club ricochets off the surface resulting in a skulled shot directly into the bank.  I eventually figured out how to get out recording octuple bogey. 

I was very disturbed and thought that during the incident I could not finish the round in a stroke play event.

Please help me with following questions and issues:

1. Am I just another snot nosed spoiled American that can not accept the course as it presents itself?

2. Should I be sympathetic with the Management / Management challenges in the recession and that the last month has been very wet?

3. Should I expect a base line level of bunker maintenance that will allow escape in some manner?

4. Of course I can play elsewhere …

Please comment

Carl

I mentioned this very scenario for a few courses I recently played in the States and was warning against this sort of approach for a Langford bunker reno in Wisconsin(?).  I watched many players essentially pick from bunkers because they couldn't get out.  Often times when they did, it the ball came out hot and low and invariably over the green.  Talk about slowing down play.  I spose there is the option of going out the wrong way, but often times there is no place to go due to trees and rough.  Many people complain about pots, but I don't think they are nearly as severe as packed sand assuming the wall height is such that one can't just poke the ball out very low and running. 

I don't care for this style of bunker, but I don't have a problem with it so long as there aren't loads of the things everywhere.  If there are, especially around the greens, the same recovery shot is required far too often - which I think is the case at Yeamans Hall and its biggest fault. 

Ciao

[Jeff_Brauer]

I wonder if this recession is the perfect time to change bunker maintenance styles.  What about a small sign near selected bunkers that details just what percentage of your greens fee or dues went to making this bunker perfect for your enjoyment?

The math is pretty simple, although I understand that some courses devote different levels of maintenance to bunkers.  I hear supers speak of $75K per year up to $250K, or $3 to $10 per round, with bunker crews from 2 workers to 6 or more.  Add in construction cost with imported sand no fried egg lie sand and liners - typically around $2.50 per SF or more - and the typical 2000 SF bunker among perhaps 60 on the course might actually cost the golfer $0.40 in debt and $0.25 in maintenance, or $0.65. Of course, if you only hit four of them a round, or 7%, then the cost might be 7X or about $4.75.

The sign might read like "Emjoy this bunker shot, it cost $4.75 of your greens fee today!"

Would most golfers pay, say $2-8 extra bucks a round for the perfect bunker shot every time they find sand?  Or would they prefer a $40 greens fee to a $45 greens fee?

[TEPaul]

Carl:

I've always found the most effective way to play out of a bunker with very hard compacted sand (no loose layer on top) is to use a lofted SW with little "bounce" and just try to stop the club almost at the ball with a fairly open face. Try it a few times; I think you'lll find it works well. Doing it that way also generally creates a lot of spin and check on the ball when it hits the green.

[Robin Doodson]

1. Am I just another snot nosed spoiled American that can not accept the course as it presents itself?

Yes. But there is strength in numbers. Maybe you should organize a million man - bad bunker march. Should be easy to find people. We have 50 or so at our club for a start.

Let us know when you are arranging the march and i'll tell all my superintendent buddies so we can come along and throw eggs at you. Bunkers are hazards. If you don't like them don't go in them. The expectation of golfers regarding the presentation of bunkers has gotten completely out of hand.

[Carl Rogers]

1. Am I just another snot nosed spoiled American that can not accept the course as it presents itself?

Yes. But there is strength in numbers. Maybe you should organize a million man - bad bunker march. Should be easy to find people. We have 50 or so at our club for a start.

Let us know when you are arranging the march and i'll tell all my superintendent buddies so we can come along and throw eggs at you. Bunkers are hazards. If you don't like them don't go in them. The expectation of golfers regarding the presentation of bunkers has gotten completely out of hand.

Sir, My profound quandry was how to finish the round and that alone.

Jeff, Would you start a new thread that elaborates a bit more.  The economics look grim to me.

[Buck Wolter]

1. Am I just another snot nosed spoiled American that can not accept the course as it presents itself?

Yes. But there is strength in numbers. Maybe you should organize a million man - bad bunker march. Should be easy to find people. We have 50 or so at our club for a start.

Let us know when you are arranging the march and i'll tell all my superintendent buddies so we can come along and throw eggs at you. Bunkers are hazards. If you don't like them don't go in them. The expectation of golfers regarding the presentation of bunkers has gotten completely out of hand.

Robin - I assume you guys will all be driving Sand Pros to the parade.

[Mike Nuzzo]

Are you sure there was no sand?
Sometimes wet sand gets very compacted.
4" is not "needed" for the single shot - you're club usually digs an inch or two - but more for a consistent surface.

I'm with Joe - try a different club or shot

There is a good course in town that has the reverse problem
The sand does not compact - very fluffy.
30% burried lies
The bunkers are a bit too penal by my estimate
I avoid them like the plague

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