[Garland Bayley]

...
Are you suggesting riding between shots is the same as playing all your golf shots while seated in the cart?
...

Wouldn't this be Ignoratio Elenchi - irrelevant conclusion?

[Garland Bayley]

Bayley -

What percentage of the people who ride a cart and play golf on any given day are handicapped to the extent that they must play all they shots sitting in a cart - 1.0%?, 0.10%?, 0.01%? The percentage is likely so small it is de minimus.

If the intent of your original post was to compare wheel chair basketball players to people who can only play golf sitting in or on a golf cart, you should have stated so in your original post.  

DT  

If you want to debate the analogy, then please state clearly where the analogy falls down instead of asking my intention. I am interested in where it falls down as well as where it succeeds.

Garland,

This fits almost perfect to the post I made in George's thread.

You asked the question, you got your answer, from multiple people no less, you don't like the answers, so you choose to continue on anyways!!

Well you know what happens next don't you?  Mike W is indeed right as its not worth wasting any more of my time on it!  Good luck. 

Isn't your post here and the others you mention Petitio Principii - Begging the question?

[A.G._Crockett]

No analogy.
No debate.
It is possible, though, that someone who lives their life in a wheelchair could point out at least some reasons why the comparison is insensitive as well as idiotic.  Perhaps you could contact such a person and discuss the merits of your "analogy" with them.

[Garland Bayley]

No analogy.
No debate.
It is possible, though, that someone who lives their life in a wheelchair could point out at least some reasons why the comparison is insensitive as well as idiotic.  Perhaps you could contact such a person and discuss the merits of your "analogy" with them.

Every one wants to say it is not an analogy, but only Kalen has tried to find what would disqualify it and make it a false analogy. He seems not to want to examine the consequences of his attempts and apparently has given up trying.

As to your response, are there not people who live there lives in a wheelchair and who participate in both wheelchair basketball, and cart golf?
I believe that the people I have played wheelchair basketball against could very likely also play cart golf.

[PCCraig]

Despite the totally stupid first post. I'll reply once more just so Gayland will understand that despite analogies, the answer remains.

There is no difference between playing basketball in a wheelchair or not. Regardless of how you propel yourself around a court, legs or wheels, the purpose of being on that court is to put the ball in the basket.

It is the same with golf, regardless of how you get around the course, your sole intention is to get the ball in 18 holes.

It doesn't matter how you do something, just so long as your basic intention is the same.

[Melvyn Morrow]

Pat

You say “It doesn't matter how you do something, just so long as your basic intention is the same”. So why do we have all these laws which restricts our freedoms, why are there the Ten Commandments and golf not only has its rules but etiquette as well.

Something tells me it does matter, it matters very much and it’s a major part of all our lives.

You also say “your sole intention is to get the ball in 18 holes” well that might be true for you however many also rate fun and enjoyment higher and all the balls do not always drop into all the holes either.

Melvyn

[Chris Cupit]

As someone whose father spent the last 17 years of his life as a quadrapalegic in a wheelchair, while I am not offended myself, I think it is a very bad analogy and I could understand others being offended.

Too much time was spent with my family at the Shepherd Spinal Clinic in Atlanta often watching handicapped individuals struggle to adapt to various sports, games and hobbies they once enjoyed.  I bet most of those "fortunate enough" to have use of their arms to be able to play wheelchair basketball would be offended to have their activity compared to taking a golf cart to stand and perform a golf shot that requires balance, athletic skill and a use of arms and legs that they could only dream of.

Wheelchair basketball would not exist but for the need to provide handicapped people a chance to enjoy a great game and activity.  People that dare to choose to ride a cart are not changing the game of golf in a way remotely comparable to what is happening with wheelchair basketball or any other activity modified so that the handicapped can adapt and enjoy some aspects of an activity.  

Wheelchair basketball is NOT A CHOICE; golf with the help of a cart is.  It's hard to believe you can't see the difference.

[Mike_Young]

Could we use the analogy of backpacking the Appalachian Trail vs riding it on horseback.....

As for me debating golf cars and their paths vs walking courses etc.....no way am I getting into that argument.....I think JE did a good job of explaining his hows and whys....the golf car has allowed golf to take place in places where it would never exist otherwise.....

It seems we often bitch regarding golf car paths due to the aesthetics and how holes are approached from one side or the other of the green instead of walking into the green from the front.....BUT golf cars have also made us "lazy" sometimes when routing a course.  AND maybe routing is not the right word.....is it routing when one finds 18 holes and then ties them together with a golf car path without considering the distance from one green to the next tee?  And I am not speaking of mountainous land where it is necessary to create holes at such distances etc.....I am mainly speaking of some of our new development courses where there can be rides between holes of 400 yards or more and also excessive inclines.....I have seen some very expensive golf courses on GOOD land that were a conglomeration of GOOD golf holes connected by golf car paths.....but no routing.....

[Roger Wolfe]

Thank you Pat... for stating so eloquently... what I couldnt.  Walking is great... but
like the owner of a hybrid car... cant everyone just quietly enjoy it... and not rub in
the fact you are ABLE to walk to those of us who cant.  It just makes me depressed
all the more about a dysfunctional left knee.

[Garland Bayley]

...
Wheelchair basketball is NOT A CHOICE; golf with the help of a cart is.  It's hard to believe you can't see the difference.

Thank you Chris for finally taking the time to make the statement that I was thinking was perhaps the reason it was a false analogy. However, you should not assume I don't see the difference.

One caveat however, much as some of you say you will play in a cart to participate with a group that is using carts, I have taken a wheel chair to join those that need to use wheel chairs to play basketball. So it is not entirely true to say wheelchair basketball is "NOT A CHOICE'.

Perhaps it is the fact that more people don't join in wheelchair basketball that is insulting, because not joining is marginalizes those that must play that way.

As far as my analogy being insulting, I agree that it might be insulting to those that choose to ride instead of walk to play golf. For those that think it might be insulting to handicapped people, I think you might underestimate the spirit of the human race.

[Garland Bayley]

Anyone care to elucidate where the analogy makes sense?

[Chris Cupit]

...
Wheelchair basketball is NOT A CHOICE; golf with the help of a cart is.  It's hard to believe you can't see the difference.

Thank you Chris for finally taking the time to make the statement that I was thinking was perhaps the reason it was a false analogy. However, you should not assume I don't see the difference.

One caveat however, much as some of you say you will play in a cart to participate with a group that is using carts, I have taken a wheel chair to join those that need to use wheel chairs to play basketball. So it is not entirely true to say wheelchair basketball is "NOT A CHOICE'.

Perhaps it is the fact that more people don't join in wheelchair basketball that is insulting, because not joining is marginalizes those that must play that way.

As far as my analogy being insulting, I agree that it might be insulting to those that choose to ride instead of walk to play golf. For those that think it might be insulting to handicapped people, I think you might underestimate the spirit of the human race.

I should not even be typing a response but I'll try again.  First, I can't believe you would suggest to me that I am "underestimating the spirit of the human race" re: handicapped people.  More than most, I can appreciate stories of incredible courage and hope from many of the genuine heroes I've met at Shepherd, my father included.  I can assure you the entire family of a quadrapalegic (or parapalegic to a slightly lesser degree) must themselves endure a life changing injury that requires quite a bit of human spirit as well.  Anyone with experience with families with severely handicapped individuals will tell you it takes a triumph of spirit from the entire family to survive, not just the handicapped individual. 

Here is why wheelchair basketball is not a choice--100% of the handicapped wheelchair basket-ballers if given the choice of mobility and "regular basketball" or mobility and you can stay in your chair (do you have any idea the absolute hatred most handicapped people feel about "their chair") and play wheelchair basketball for "fun" will choose the game that allows the to use their legs again.   

Your speaking of playing wheelchair basketball yourself and how others not doing so marginalizes those that must play that way is nauseatingly patronizing.  When you finished playing (and if they needed an extra player, that was a nice thing to do) you were able to STAND UP AND WALK AWAY--no one else on that court could.  You had a choice, the other 9 players did not.  Also, whether you or any other able bodied person ever plays wheelchair ball has no effect on the genuine marginalization that handicapped people face every day.  That is a real issue and unintentionally you are trivializing it.

Just give this up, it's a really bad analogy.  Please.

[Todd Bell]

Does a shark swim faster than a cheetah runs?

[Martin Toal]

Poor choice of analogy.

I see cart golf differently, and have played it many times in the US. Never in the UK, though. Here, carts tend to be restricted to those who have medical problems. I have no issue with people with medical problems using a cart, but terminal laziness now appears to be one of those problems in some clubs.

The only point of cart golf should be to speed up play, or sometimes to make a course with large gaps between green and tee, or large elevations, playable.

When on vacation, if I get a chance to play a course which is very quiet, then in a cart I can shoot around in 2 hours or less. But standing on a tee when a pair of carts are zig zagging around a fairway ahead like a mating dance of some crazed pair of insects, is infuriating. as is the knucklehead who sits in a cart chomping a cigar watching their partner play, then waits for him to come back so they can drive forward 10 yards and reverse the process. 

Also, if I call a course and they tell me it is cart path only, my interest level drops considerably. That is the worst of all worlds. 

[JeffTodd]

The rules of basketball must be modified in order to be played in a wheelchair. The rules of golf, on the other hand, can be adhered to while riding in a cart.

[PThomas]

As someone whose father spent the last 17 years of his life as a quadrapalegic in a wheelchair, while I am not offended myself, I think it is a very bad analogy and I could understand others being offended.

Too much time was spent with my family at the Shepherd Spinal Clinic in Atlanta often watching handicapped individuals struggle to adapt to various sports, games and hobbies they once enjoyed.  I bet most of those "fortunate enough" to have use of their arms to be able to play wheelchair basketball would be offended to have their activity compared to taking a golf cart to stand and perform a golf shot that requires balance, athletic skill and a use of arms and legs that they could only dream of.

Wheelchair basketball would not exist but for the need to provide handicapped people a chance to enjoy a great game and activity.  People that dare to choose to ride a cart are not changing the game of golf in a way remotely comparable to what is happening with wheelchair basketball or any other activity modified so that the handicapped can adapt and enjoy some aspects of an activity.  

Wheelchair basketball is NOT A CHOICE; golf with the help of a cart is.  It's hard to believe you can't see the difference.

i'd say Chris' post is the final word on this topic...

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