Combined Top 10: Engh & Strantz

[Jim Colton]

We've had these combined ranking showdowns on a couple other modern designers (Dye/Faz, Jones family).  How about Engh vs. Strantz?  If you had to come up with a top 10 ranking of just their two portfolios, what would it look like?

ps. great to have Mr. Engh contributing on the site again.  This is a guy who has dominated the Best New category in Golf Digest:

The Club at Black Rock – Coeur D’Alene, Idaho No. 1   “Best New Private Course” 2003
Tullymore Golf Club – Stanwood, Michigan No. 1   “Best New Public Upscale” 2002
Redlands Mesa Golf Club – Grand Junction, Colorado No. 1   “Best New Public Affordable Golf Course” 2001
Sanctuary – Sedalia, Colorado No. 1   “Best New Private Golf Course” 1997

I've only played 3 combined:
1. Tobacco Road
2. Tullymore
3. True North

[Kalen Braley]

I've only played 5 total....my list looka like this.

1)  MPCC Shore - Stranz
2)  Black Rock - Engh
3)  Lakota Canyon - Engh
4)  Sanctuary - Engh
5)  Redlands - Engh

[Kyle Henderson]

1)Tobacco Road (Strantz)
2) MPCC Shore (Strantz)
3) Tot Hill Farm (Strantz)
4) Lakota Canyon (Engh)

No slight to Engh. Lakota Canyon provides very compelling golf, especially the front 9.
But I love me some o' dat Strantz, warts and all.

[Jay Flemma]

Tough...well I'm going with my favorites, not necessarily which I thnk is best - there is a difference...

1.  Bulls Bay

2.  MPCC

3. The Road

4.  Red Hawk Ridge

5.  Redlands Mesa

6.  (tie)  Royal New Kent - Pradera

8.  Caledonia

9.  Sanctuary

10. (tie) Blackstone-Fossil

but it's kinda fluid...we are really splitting hairs between the truly great and the really truly great.  They all rock!

[Jay Flemma]

bump

[David Stamm]

MPCC Shore is incredible. I was blown away by it.

[astavrides]

from the ones ive played

redlands mesa
lakota canyon
caledonia
royal new kent
tobacco road
snowmass (redesign)
fossil trace
red hawk ridge
stonehouse

[Jay Flemma]

from the ones ive played

redlands mesa
lakota canyon
caledonia
royal new kent
tobacco road
snowmass (redesign)
fossil trace
red hawk ridge
stonehouse

Nice Alex!  Way to make me glad I bumped this.

I cannot believe you listed Redlands and Lakota 1-2, that is cool.  Why?  Why after all the agony those two take here do you like them the most?

Did you walk them?  I walked them both, and was doubled over winded after both, but loved them both too.  That's why they are a drop lower on my list.

We shall have to play either Bulls Bay or Pradera together.

David, also nice job shouting out MPCC Shore.

OK I'm inspired, so here's my list of the best...not my faves which are above, but what I think are best.

1.  Tobacco Road (his indisputable masterpiece)
2.  MPCC (his chance to stand with  mackenzie forever)
3.  Bulls Bay (you need to see this)
4.  Sanctuary (it's archetypal Engh:  a defining moment, and a hell of an opening salvo)
5.  Royal New Kent (a much more intelligent course than people know.  According to him, some Raynor, some RCD, some Pine Valley, and some Merion)
6.  Caledonia (edges Redlands because it took over the perch of best in MB and has naver blookeed back since)
7.  Redlands Mesa (so what it's a tough walk?  You'll have the course to yourself, and be in your opwn spaghetti western.  Its the best canyon;lands course yet built.)
8.  Pradera
9.  Fossil Trace
10. Red Hawk Ridge

[astavrides]

Jay,

I walked Redlands, but not Lakota.  It's hard to say why I liked them the most.  Just a feel thing.  I really could've thrown a blanket over my top 5 and rated them in any order.  I would very much like to play Bulls Bay and Pradera.

Why did Lakota make neither your top 10 favorite or best?  Was it mostly due to a lack of walkability?

Tobacco Road was 'his indisputable masterpiece', yet it wasn't one of your 10 favorites of theirs?

[Brian Cenci]

Interesting because the two architects I think are complete opposites.  I've only played 8 between the two.

#1 - Bull's Bay
#2 - Tobacco Road
#3 - Lakota Canyon
#4 - Royal New Kent
#5 - GC at Redlands Mesa
#6 - Tullymore
#7 - Hawktree
#8 - True North

[Jon Heise]

My full list:

Caledonia
Tobacco
True North
Tot Hill
Tully

Limited #'s, but that's how I slot 'em.

[Jim Franklin]

My list:

Black Rock
Sanctuary
MPCC (Shore)
Royal New Kent
Caledonia
Pradera
Creek Club
Tobacco Road
True Blue
True North
Tot Hill Farm
Stonehouse
Fossil Trace
Lakota Canyon

[Jay Flemma]

Jay,

I walked Redlands, but not Lakota.  It's hard to say why I liked them the most.  Just a feel thing.  I really could've thrown a blanket over my top 5 and rated them in any order.  I would very much like to play Bulls Bay and Pradera.

Why did Lakota make neither your top 10 favorite or best?  Was it mostly due to a lack of walkability?

Tobacco Road was 'his indisputable masterpiece', yet it wasn't one of your 10 favorites of theirs?

it is...I called it "The Road."  It's number 3.

[cary lichtenstein]

From the ones I have played, the best from each are in no particular order:
 
Strantz:

Tobacco Road
Royal New Kent
MPCC
Tot Hill Farm (just for uniqueness)

Engh:

BlackRock
Santcuary
Lakota
Redlands Mesa

[Ron Csigo]

Unfortunately, I've yet to play a Mr. Engh design but if I had to rank my Strantz courses, it'd look like this:

Tobacco Road
Caledonia
Royal New Kent
True Blue
Tot Hill Farm
Stonehouse

[Jay Flemma]

Interesting because the two architects I think are complete opposites.  I've only played 8 between the two.

#1 - Bull's Bay
#2 - Tobacco Road
#3 - Lakota Canyon
#4 - Royal New Kent
#5 - GC at Redlands Mesa
#6 - Tullymore
#7 - Hawktree
#8 - True North

Bulls Bay = #1!  Nice,  Fave holes?  I love 2 and 13.

[Ronald Montesano]

1.  I would tell everyone to play Tot Hill before playing Tobacco Road.  There is no way that you can play THF after Da' Road and not feel a bit let down.  The conditioning at Tot Hill, especially on the back nine, down in the watery area, is critical to enjoyment.

2.  Is Stonehouse that inferior a course?  I am making plans for a Williamsburg trip next Summer and look forward to RNK and Stonehouse.  For those who have played Stonehouse, what are the plusses and minuses?

3.  My only Engh is Tullymore, which I enjoyed tremendously.  I find it to be a visually seductive and physically fair golf course.  It is all about ignoring temptation and choosing the proper lines.  I have made friends with an owner of True North and hope to get up there on my next trip to MI.

4.  I would rate my three Strantz courses thus:  Tobacco Road, then True Blue, then Tot Hill Farm.

[Tony_Chapman]

I've played two each. I won't count the first six holes Jim ever designed on the back nine at my home course in Nebraska, York CC. Two great par-5's and a cool, driveable par-4 in that set.

1. Tobacco Road
2. Hawktree
3. Caledonia
4. Red Hawk Ridge

[Jay Flemma]

Hawktree is another really great course...I love the black slag in the bunkers.  Pix later when I get some time.

[Bill Satterfield]

I've only played one Mike Strantz, but here would be my list:

1.  MPCC (Shore)
2.  Black Rock
3.  Sanctuary
4.  Lakota Canyon
5.  Redlands Mesa
6.  Pradera
7.  Fossil Trace
8.  Red Hawk Ridge
9.  Columbia Point

[Jay Flemma]

Funny, but just about everyone is picking the supposedly unwalkable Engh courses over the walkable ones.  What is it about Redlands and lakota everyone likes?  I liked redlands more than Lakota, even though Lakota is beautiful.

[Jim Franklin]

Funny, but just about everyone is picking the supposedly unwalkable Engh courses over the walkable ones.  What is it about Redlands and lakota everyone likes?  I liked redlands more than Lakota, even though Lakota is beautiful.

Uh, Lakota was last on my list.

[astavrides]

Funny, but just about everyone is picking the supposedly unwalkable Engh courses over the walkable ones.  What is it about Redlands and lakota everyone likes?  I liked redlands more than Lakota, even though Lakota is beautiful.

walkability isn't very important to me.

[Mike Boehm]

Only ranking those I have played:

1.  Tobacco Road
2.  Tullymore
3.  Caledonia
4.  True Blue
5.  True North

I'd gladly play all of the above any time and hope to be able to complete a full top 10 of Engh/Strantz works some day.

[Bill Satterfield]

Why are the unwalkable courses higher on my list than the walkable ones?  Because they are funner to play, deliver more of an adrenaline rush from some of the elevated tees, deliver some fantastic vistas, etc.