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Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: ....so much fuss over concrete...
« Reply #200 on: September 28, 2009, 05:40:03 PM »


As far as Mr. Engh's participation is concerned, it has been suggested to me that he may be ashamed of his supporters.




who ever "suggested it to you" must love to hear mindless untrue gossip.  When you little scamps get together you're worse than a sewing circle.

Come on Jay,

We get what seems like endless promotion of Mr. Engh's courses here only to find out that the promoter has been getting free golf, lodging, and meals. Makes them seem like they must be over hyped bits of mediocrity.

"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Jay Flemma

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: ....so much fuss over concrete...
« Reply #201 on: September 28, 2009, 05:59:13 PM »


As far as Mr. Engh's participation is concerned, it has been suggested to me that he may be ashamed of his supporters.




who ever "suggested it to you" must love to hear mindless untrue gossip.  When you little scamps get together you're worse than a sewing circle.

Come on Jay,

We get what seems like endless promotion of Mr. Engh's courses here only to find out that the promoter has been getting free golf, lodging, and meals. Makes them seem like they must be over hyped bits of mediocrity.



Oh...so I see, you just wanna stick it to Matt Ward!  Well Ran liked his courses too.  See Ran's interview with Jim:

http://golfclubatlas.com/feature-interview/jim-engh-october-2006

So is Ran wrong too?

Just because you and david don't like Matt is no reason to demonize a hardworking architect who generously gives his time answer relentless questions from guys who think way more of themselves than they actually deserve.
« Last Edit: September 28, 2009, 06:02:49 PM by Jay Flemma »
Mackenzie, MacRayBanks, Maxwell, Doak, Dye, Strantz. @JayGolfUSA, GNN Radio Host of Jay's Plays www.cybergolf.com/writerscorner

Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: ....so much fuss over concrete...
« Reply #202 on: September 28, 2009, 06:17:29 PM »
...
Just because you and david don't like Matt is no reason to demonize a hardworking architect who generously gives his time answer relentless questions from guys who think way more of themselves than they actually deserve.

??? There have been several very thoughtful, polite, serious questions posed to Mr. Engh on this thread, and he has answered none of them. ???

...
Thought of the day: "when you choose to be a rebel, you can't be offended when someone has a differing opinion"
...

Besides, it seems Jim has already told us he won't be offecded by differing opinions.
« Last Edit: September 28, 2009, 06:21:27 PM by Bayley R. Garland »
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

David Kelly

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: ....so much fuss over concrete...
« Reply #203 on: September 28, 2009, 06:30:06 PM »
My course is very walkable, yet I'd wager 80% of the members ride...and for many, they would not be able to play if they had to walk...what a sad world it would be if these guys did not get up out of the house, and come to the course, ride in their carts, and play golf with their buddies....

Then why is it that when I visit Australia and the UK I see plenty of older people (65+) walking and playing golf?  Are you saying that there is a large percentage of people in those countries who are being frozen out of playing golf because riding in a golf cart is not the norm?

While keeping in mind that there are people who physically cannot play golf without a cart, I think a lot of people rely on a cart regardless of whether they can walk 18 or not.  At my home course, which is very walkable btw,  I see a large percentage of people below the age of 40 riding carts.
"Whatever in creation exists without my knowledge exists without my consent." - Judge Holden, Blood Meridian.

Bill_McBride

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: ....so much fuss over concrete...
« Reply #204 on: September 28, 2009, 07:59:54 PM »
My course is very walkable, yet I'd wager 80% of the members ride...and for many, they would not be able to play if they had to walk...what a sad world it would be if these guys did not get up out of the house, and come to the course, ride in their carts, and play golf with their buddies....

Then why is it that when I visit Australia and the UK I see plenty of older people (65+) walking and playing golf?  Are you saying that there is a large percentage of people in those countries who are being frozen out of playing golf because riding in a golf cart is not the norm?

While keeping in mind that there are people who physically cannot play golf without a cart, I think a lot of people rely on a cart regardless of whether they can walk 18 or not.  At my home course, which is very walkable btw,  I see a large percentage of people below the age of 40 riding carts.

One of the most discouraging things I've seen in the last ten years of golf was two young and obviously healthy guys playing in a buggy (golf cart) on the Balcomie Links at Crail.   :P >:(

A.G._Crockett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: ....so much fuss over concrete...
« Reply #205 on: September 28, 2009, 09:07:38 PM »
My course is very walkable, yet I'd wager 80% of the members ride...and for many, they would not be able to play if they had to walk...what a sad world it would be if these guys did not get up out of the house, and come to the course, ride in their carts, and play golf with their buddies....

Then why is it that when I visit Australia and the UK I see plenty of older people (65+) walking and playing golf?  Are you saying that there is a large percentage of people in those countries who are being frozen out of playing golf because riding in a golf cart is not the norm?

While keeping in mind that there are people who physically cannot play golf without a cart, I think a lot of people rely on a cart regardless of whether they can walk 18 or not.  At my home course, which is very walkable btw,  I see a large percentage of people below the age of 40 riding carts.

One of the most discouraging things I've seen in the last ten years of golf was two young and obviously healthy guys playing in a buggy (golf cart) on the Balcomie Links at Crail.   :P >:(

Funny you should mention Crail; I've told this story a bazillion times here, but I'll try it again.  At one time, a club here in Atlanta had a yearly Ryder Cup style match with Crail at alternating sites.  The first year that the match was to be here, the golfers on the high school team I was coaching at the time were conscripted to caddy for the Scots; the course was our home course and it was required by the club.

As it turned out, not one of the Scots walked, not one, and this on a very walkable course!  (Though the course was much hillier than the coast of Scotland, I assure you.)  My kids ended up being forecaddies for the weekend, except for a few of the locals who walked their home course and laughed about the "purists" from Scotland.
"Golf...is usually played with the outward appearance of great dignity.  It is, nevertheless, a game of considerable passion, either of the explosive type, or that which burns inwardly and sears the soul."      Bobby Jones

Kirk Gill

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: ....so much fuss over concrete...
« Reply #206 on: September 28, 2009, 10:20:02 PM »
??? There have been several very thoughtful, polite, serious questions posed to Mr. Engh on this thread, and he has answered none of them. ???

I wouldn't take it personally, Bayley. I've never gotten the impression that he hangs out all THAT often on the site. Hopefully this thread will still be around when he stops back in.
"After all, we're not communists."
                             -Don Barzini

Brian Phillips

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: ....so much fuss over concrete...
« Reply #207 on: September 29, 2009, 12:49:30 AM »

Brian

Then please do not build cart paths. ;)

Carts, cart paths do not a game of golf make.

Melvyn
Melvyn,

I will not build a cart path if you guarantee me another project (of the same size) or pay for the food on my family's table and promise me that no other architect will take the project.

 ;)

Brian
Bunkers, if they be good bunkers, and bunkers of strong character, refuse to be disregarded, and insist on asserting themselves; they do not mind being avoided, but they decline to be ignored - John Low Concerning Golf

Melvyn Morrow

Re: ....so much fuss over concrete...
« Reply #208 on: September 29, 2009, 07:33:48 AM »
Brian

Come to think of it, you have a point. You just can’t trust architects these days, just look what they have done to the good honest golf course. :o

Island Greens or Greens with water around them - boy that took some design initiative and really taxed the old grey cells. >:(
Cart Tracks more time appears to have been spent designing these abominations than perhaps on the whole course. >:( >:(
Long tracks between Greens & Tees, some nearly matching the length of the hole one is about to play and what an interesting journey on the eye, allowing the golfer full access to the glory and beauty of the golf course. :-\ :'(

Design features and some get paid for leaving a course looking like that. Real design intent, oh yes pull the other one, not one of these in my book adds to the enjoyment of the game of Golf. :( :( :(

Of course Brian, I know you would never ever dream of committing any of the above crimes against golf or golfers. ;)

Is there any truth in the rumour that a Spanish club is considering replacing carts with an ex-Disneyland Mono-Rail system with individual cars to carry 4 golfers and their bags to help speed up the game.  Of course, it means that they expect every golfer to land in the same area as the rest of his friends, well if they can do that on an Island Green why not on the Fairway, seems to be the thought behind the idea. Well at least it proves that some architects do have some ideas at times. ;D

Of course I jest, but by providing a service people will use it. The interesting thing would be not to provide it and just watch and learn. That will I know not happen but it would be a worthwhile study IMHO. 8)

Melvyn   

« Last Edit: September 29, 2009, 07:50:42 AM by Melvyn Hunter Morrow »

Jon Spaulding

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: ....so much fuss over concrete...
« Reply #209 on: September 29, 2009, 11:35:34 AM »

I have walked Pradera every time I have played it with no problem whatsoever.  The notion that Pradera is unwalkable is overrated!

Jay, the above proclamation is a bit confusing. A brief search for Pradera on Youtube yielded this video result:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZUMQHkOOrF0&feature=related

You'd make a fine little helper. What's your name?

Eric Smith

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: ....so much fuss over concrete...
« Reply #210 on: September 29, 2009, 11:50:04 AM »

I have walked Pradera every time I have played it with no problem whatsoever.  The notion that Pradera is unwalkable is overrated!

Jay, the above proclamation is a bit confusing. A brief search for Pradera on Youtube yielded this video result:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZUMQHkOOrF0&feature=related



Now that's funny. "Damn the internet!" ;D

Jay Flemma

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: ....so much fuss over concrete...
« Reply #211 on: September 29, 2009, 11:57:55 AM »
I walked that day.   I took a ride TO THE TEE BOX BETWEEN TWO HOLES OR THE PRACTICE AREA AND THE TEE SO TONY COULD SHOOT THAT VIDEO!  At the end of the video you see me take my driver and walk, which is what I did all day.  We kept the clubs on the cart, but I walked...and there are plenty of guys here that play with me that know that, including GCAers who were there that day.  Sorry, "Jon" but nice try!!
« Last Edit: September 29, 2009, 02:26:21 PM by Jay Flemma »
Mackenzie, MacRayBanks, Maxwell, Doak, Dye, Strantz. @JayGolfUSA, GNN Radio Host of Jay's Plays www.cybergolf.com/writerscorner

David Kelly

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: ....so much fuss over concrete...
« Reply #212 on: September 29, 2009, 12:00:14 PM »

I have walked Pradera every time I have played it with no problem whatsoever.  The notion that Pradera is unwalkable is overrated!

Jay, the above proclamation is a bit confusing. A brief search for Pradera on Youtube yielded this video result:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZUMQHkOOrF0&feature=related

For 'tis the sport to have the enginer
Hoist with his own petard; and 't shall go hard
"Whatever in creation exists without my knowledge exists without my consent." - Judge Holden, Blood Meridian.

Jay Flemma

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: ....so much fuss over concrete...
« Reply #213 on: September 29, 2009, 12:05:51 PM »
...and I thought we weren't supposed to have any FAKE NAMES on GCA?  "Jon Spaulding?"
Mackenzie, MacRayBanks, Maxwell, Doak, Dye, Strantz. @JayGolfUSA, GNN Radio Host of Jay's Plays www.cybergolf.com/writerscorner

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: ....so much fuss over concrete...
« Reply #214 on: September 29, 2009, 12:06:22 PM »

I have walked Pradera every time I have played it with no problem whatsoever.  The notion that Pradera is unwalkable is overrated!

Jay, the above proclamation is a bit confusing. A brief search for Pradera on Youtube yielded this video result:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZUMQHkOOrF0&feature=related


Jay,

I'm sure Melyvn was very bummed to not see the golf cart and all get sucked into that "vortex".

P.S.  Did the "late-night" rally work?   ;D

David Stamm

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: ....so much fuss over concrete...
« Reply #215 on: September 29, 2009, 12:30:31 PM »
Jay, there is about 50-60 people on this board who can testify to Jon Spaulding being real. After they see him hit a tee shot, they never forget. The man is more "real" than just about anybody I've ever met.
"The object of golf architecture is to give an intelligent purpose to the striking of a golf ball."- Max Behr

David Kelly

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: ....so much fuss over concrete...
« Reply #216 on: September 29, 2009, 01:06:03 PM »
The man is more "real" than just about anybody I've ever met.

And believe me, David Stamm should know!
"Whatever in creation exists without my knowledge exists without my consent." - Judge Holden, Blood Meridian.

Tony Weiler

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: ....so much fuss over concrete...
« Reply #217 on: September 29, 2009, 01:45:44 PM »
There IS a lot of fuss over concrete.   ???

Jay Flemma

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: ....so much fuss over concrete...
« Reply #218 on: September 29, 2009, 01:48:51 PM »
Well there are also about ten people who can testify that I walked Pradera that day too...including GCAers Adam Clayman and Eddie Peck. They played with me that whole trip where I walked every place we played...Ballyneal, Fossil, Pradera and Red Hawk...lincluding 36 one day.  That video section of me iin the cart was from the PRACTICE AREA to the FIRST TEE.  I walked the rest of the course, and Jim, Adam, Eddie and Tony saw.

So Jon has no business trying to smear me.  I have never done anything to him for him to come on here and try a bush-league and disingenuous attack like that.  Jon Spaulding you were dead wrong and mean-spirited for no reason, and you owe me an apology...and you owe the website one too.

This is Ran's North star...a place where gentlermen and friends are supposed to unwind, meet each other and learn from each other...and people like him sully it every time the slime their way over here from...wherever else they hang out ;)  That's exactly the kind of nonsense that suppresses discussion of architecture, and makes others in the industry...like archies, writers, and course owners NOT want to participate...and that hurts all of us and Ran.  Think how much better this place is without the few people who think they score points zinging others to make themselves look good on an Internet bulletin board.  Some people really need to get a life...and stop being resentful of those who do.
« Last Edit: September 29, 2009, 02:27:19 PM by Jay Flemma »
Mackenzie, MacRayBanks, Maxwell, Doak, Dye, Strantz. @JayGolfUSA, GNN Radio Host of Jay's Plays www.cybergolf.com/writerscorner

Jud_T

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: ....so much fuss over concrete...
« Reply #219 on: September 29, 2009, 01:50:14 PM »
what if we just paved over every course and simply started racing the carts about?
Golf is a game. We play it. Somewhere along the way we took the fun out of it and charged a premium to be punished.- - Ron Sirak

Jay Flemma

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: ....so much fuss over concrete...
« Reply #220 on: September 29, 2009, 01:50:53 PM »
what if we just paved over every course and simply started racing the carts about?
Then as Phish says..."WE CAN STAGE...A RUNAWAY GOLF CART MARATHON!!!!!"
Mackenzie, MacRayBanks, Maxwell, Doak, Dye, Strantz. @JayGolfUSA, GNN Radio Host of Jay's Plays www.cybergolf.com/writerscorner

Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: ....so much fuss over concrete...
« Reply #221 on: September 29, 2009, 02:39:46 PM »
...
Let me put it this way to the business people out there. You have opened this great new Chinese restaurant, here in the US, that is intended to support your family. The food is the best in the state. 70% of your customers prefer to use a fork as opposed to chop sticks. Do you stand your ground and go out of business because forks are not traditional? Or do you give them nice quality forks with a great dining experience and have happy customers?  
...

You need a better example. Using chop stick takes considerable training and practice. Whereas, everyone thinks they can drive a cart.


Considerable training and practice?! To use chop sticks?!  Any idiot with an opposable thumb can learn to use chopsticks in two sittings max.

Jay,

I assume you are speaking of "gentlemanly" posts like this one of yours.  ::)
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Michael Moore

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: ....so much fuss over concrete...
« Reply #222 on: September 29, 2009, 02:50:55 PM »
Jay -

Your assessments of walkability in which your golf clubs are being ferried about by an outside agency are not particularly notable.
Metaphor is social and shares the table with the objects it intertwines and the attitudes it reconciles. Opinion, like the Michelin inspector, dines alone. - Adam Gopnik, The Table Comes First

Jay Flemma

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: ....so much fuss over concrete...
« Reply #223 on: September 29, 2009, 02:53:06 PM »
It was an event, Mike.  Haven't you ever played an event where they make you put the clubs on a cart?  Even some private clubs in Maine make you do that.

Again...Adam Clayman and Eddie Peck and others were there the whole trip.  They know I walk and carry my clubs whenever I'm allowed.  And moreover, anyone who played in the Dixie Cup with Mike W and Bill and Dick Daley and I knows that not only do I walk and carry whenever I can, but I walked all three days that event with shin splints so bad I had to ice my ankles for an hour each day after play.  

You don't klnow anything with any personal knowledge, Michael Moore, so take your ad hominem attacks and march straight back to Maine...leave this kind of "discussing architecture" to other sites ;) much lesser sites ;)
« Last Edit: September 29, 2009, 03:27:52 PM by Jay Flemma »
Mackenzie, MacRayBanks, Maxwell, Doak, Dye, Strantz. @JayGolfUSA, GNN Radio Host of Jay's Plays www.cybergolf.com/writerscorner

Michael Moore

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: ....so much fuss over concrete...
« Reply #224 on: September 29, 2009, 02:57:25 PM »
I'm just saying that walking the course without golf clubs on your back is not useful when making an honest assessment of a course's walkability. Right?
Metaphor is social and shares the table with the objects it intertwines and the attitudes it reconciles. Opinion, like the Michelin inspector, dines alone. - Adam Gopnik, The Table Comes First

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