....so much fuss over concrete...

[Jim_Kennedy]

Garland,
Why such a smart ass? Trust me, you wouldn't know how to burst my bubble. 

AG's post intrigued me so I used my "Ask a Friend" option and called someone in NJ who I thought would know. I haven't seen the booklet myself so I can't yet tell who is correct, but I don't think either of you would be lying about it. Someone is misinformed, no more no less. If it turns out that you are right, well good for you. No animals, children or adult morons were hurt in the making of that earlier post. 

Personally, I don't really care if a course is a better walk or a better ride, as long as it's interesting, and as the booklet says, the best of the best will be a practicable walk. That should suffice. 

[Garland Bayley]

Garland,
Why such a smart ass? Trust me, you wouldn't know how to burst my bubble. 

AG's post intrigued me so I used my "Ask a Friend" option and called someone in NJ who I thought would know. I haven't seen the booklet myself so I can't yet tell who is correct, but I don't think either of you would be lying about it. Someone is misinformed, no more no less. If it turns out that you are right, well good for you. No animals, children or adult morons were hurt in the making of that earlier post. 

Personally, I don't really care if a course is a better walk or a better ride, as long as it's interesting, and as the booklet says, the best of the best will be a practicable walk. That should suffice. 

Check your email. You will then have seen the booklet and can tell who is correct!

[Jim_Kennedy]

GB,
That's a cute little booklet. I'd like to thank Snoopy for setting the record straight. 

[Kalen Braley]

Hey Garland,

Do you like Apples?  Well how about these apples...straight from the rulebook!

http://www.usga.org/Rule-Books/Rules-of-Golf/Decision-33/

33-1/8  Use of Golf Carts in Competition
Q. May a player use a golf cart during a competition?
A. Yes, unless such equipment is prohibited in the conditions of the competition

So which viewpoint are we to give more weight to?  An "opinion" from 14 years ago, or an actual ruling in the current rules?

Apparently even the USGA believes playing golf with carts is indeed playing golf!   

Game over!!   

[DMoriarty]

Gaylord Barley,

I don't care who is correct, but If you have a digital copy, could you send me one as well?  I've looked a bit but haven't found one online.

Also, since Mr. Engh is from North Dakota and you are from pretty close to what we used to call West Dakota (eastern Montana) do you think it would lighten the mood around here  if I shared my favorite grade school North Dakotan joke?  Or would it be seen as another inappropriate attack?

(For those of you not fortunate enough to grow up in The Last Best Place, North Dakotan jokes are about all Montanans have to entertain themselves on those long winter nights.  Except for the  sheep, that is.)

[Garland Bayley]

Hey Garland,

Do you like Apples?  Well how about these apples...straight from the rulebook!

http://www.usga.org/Rule-Books/Rules-of-Golf/Decision-33/

33-1/8  Use of Golf Carts in Competition
Q. May a player use a golf cart during a competition?
A. Yes, unless such equipment is prohibited in the conditions of the competition

So which viewpoint are we to give more weight too?  An "opinion" from 14 years ago, or an actual ruling in the current rules?

Apparently even the USGA believes playing golf with carts is indeed playing golf!   

Game over!!   

Kalen,

You seem to be desperate to read things that aren't there. They believe playing golf is walking, as they have written. They allow the use of a cart, but do not state that is their idea of playing golf. Indeed, to get people to play golf as they see it, they allow the stipulation of the requirement that you must walk.

Also, it looks as though you are not quoting the rule book, but instead are quoting the decisions on the rules.
I'll let you answer that without taking the time to verify myself as you apparently have the resource at hand.

[Kalen Braley]

Hey Garland,

Do you like Apples?  Well how about these apples...straight from the rulebook!

http://www.usga.org/Rule-Books/Rules-of-Golf/Decision-33/

33-1/8  Use of Golf Carts in Competition
Q. May a player use a golf cart during a competition?
A. Yes, unless such equipment is prohibited in the conditions of the competition

So which viewpoint are we to give more weight too?  An "opinion" from 14 years ago, or an actual ruling in the current rules?

Apparently even the USGA believes playing golf with carts is indeed playing golf!   

Game over!!   

Kalen,

You seem to be desperate to read things that aren't there. They believe playing golf is walking, as they have written. They allow the use of a cart, but do not state that is their idea of playing golf. Indeed, to get people to play golf as they see it, they allow the stipulation of the requirement that you must walk.

Also, it looks as though you are not quoting the rule book, but instead are quoting the decisions on the rules.
I'll let you answer that without taking the time to verify myself as you apparently have the resource at hand.

No desperation here big bird!!   

Its very simple, follow the logical flow.

1)  USGA makes rules for "golf".
2)  Rules include decisions which carry same weight as rules when there is a dispute/question.
3)  USGA specifically says "golfers can use carts during competition"
4)  If competition golf = golf and carts can be used in competition,  then when using carts, one is still "golfing" not cart-balling.  By definition it must be golf and cannot something else.

Its that easy!!!   

[Kalen Braley]

Oh and one more thing, before you wriggle and spin some more!!

When the USGA says "You might be playing "cart-ball," but it's not golf.", they are expliciting declaring cart-ball is not = golf... thats not just a mere opinion.

And when the official rules and decision say cart-ball is = golf, then you now have a clear contradiction.

At best you have to ask yourself, was the USGA lying then, or are they lying now!!   

[Garland Bayley]

...
4)  If competition golf = golf and carts can be used in competition,  then when using carts, one is still "golfing" not cart-balling.  By definition it must be golf and cannot something else.
...

Let me know when you find this definition by the USGA. You should be familiar enough with logic to know you whole argument rests on it.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Jim,

I'm one of those that feel that cart paths are a neccesity today.

At clubs I'm familiar with I see men in their 80's and 90's playing golf.

Some walk, some ride.
 

Pat, your post made me think of this question for all of us:

if due to health considerations the only way you could golf would be to take a cart, what would you do?

i love the game too much to give it up, so i'd get a cart

Paul,

It's not a hypothetical question for me.

There was a time when I couldn't walk 50 feet, nor could I hit a ball 180 off the tee, but, I played as much as I could with a cart, and, I was competitive.

Why should I be deprived of playing a game I love so much, solely because of a medical condition that prevents me from walking ?

If someone gave up the game because they couldn't walk the golf course, but, could play with the use of a cart,  I'd have to question their golfing soul.


and thanks Jim for your interesting and thoughtful post

[Patrick_Mucci]

Bayley,

When I played in the U.S.G.A. Amateur, I didn't notice or wasn't aware of any fellow competitors who had had by-pass surgery, hip and/or knee replacements, detached retinas, neuropathy, angioplasties, cataract surgery, various forms of cancer or numerous other maladies.

When I played in the U.S.G.A. Senior Amateur it was an unusual and blessed competitor who didn't have one or more of those afflictions.

The U.S.G.A. allows cart use in their competitons because they recognize the golfer's desire to play competitive golf despite the fact that their body's aren't capable of walking. 

[Patrick_Mucci]

Not long ago I played a golf course that had a reachable par 5, with a fairway and features that sloped left to right, especially at the green surrounds.

The configuration was:
Green
Flanking Bunker/s (5 yards)
Sloping mound/s  (5 yards)
Macadam Cart path   (2 yards)
OB  (immediately next to the cart path)

Any ball hit slightly right of the green that wasn't fortunate enough to land in the right flanking bunker would probably bounce off the slope, onto the cart path and out of bounds.

The material used and placement of that cart path is/are the product of ________ ( I'll let you fill in the blank).

[PThomas]

Jim,

I'm one of those that feel that cart paths are a neccesity today.

At clubs I'm familiar with I see men in their 80's and 90's playing golf.

Some walk, some ride.
 

Pat, your post made me think of this question for all of us:

if due to health considerations the only way you could golf would be to take a cart, what would you do?

i love the game too much to give it up, so i'd get a cart

Paul,

It's not a hypothetical question for me.

There was a time when I couldn't walk 50 feet, nor could I hit a ball 180 off the tee, but, I played as much as I could with a cart, and, I was competitive.

Why should I be deprived of playing a game I love so much, solely because of a medical condition that prevents me from walking ?

If someone gave up the game because they couldn't walk the golf course, but, could play with the use of a cart,  I'd have to question their golfing soul.

well said Patrick and I feel the same way as you do

[A.G._Crockett]

...
4)  If competition golf = golf and carts can be used in competition,  then when using carts, one is still "golfing" not cart-balling.  By definition it must be golf and cannot something else.
...

Let me know when you find this definition by the USGA. You should be familiar enough with logic to know you whole argument rests on it.

Just as YOUR argument rests on a two statements found in a 16 page booklet featuring Snoopy written almost 15 years ago.  YOUR argument is found nowhere in the Rules, nor in the Decisions, nor in the handicapping system rules.  In fact, quite the contrary is the case, as has been pointed out to you endlessly, correctly, and clearly.

In truth, you actually have no real "argument".  What you have is a tiresome, self-righteous, never-ending rant against people that make different choices than you make, and that's pretty much it.  I know you thrive on that sort of thing, but yelling the same thing over and over and over doesn't make it true or correct; most learn that at a very young age.

I would suggest that you re-read Mr. Mucci's last several posts.  He is as good a steward of our great game as I know of, and his opinion on this subject carries great weight.  What part of his thoughts do you find to be incorrect, poorly thought out, or inconsistent with the Rules?

[Garland Bayley]

...
If someone gave up the game because they couldn't walk the golf course, but, could play with the use of a cart,  I'd have to question their golfing soul.
...

As we all know there are Scottish people that consider walking such an integral part of the game that they question someone's soul if they take a cart to play at golf instead of moving on to other things.

Your perspective is your perspective. Their perspective is their perspective. I believe each is entitled.

But the the issue really is about those who can walk, but choose to take a cart and enable Mr Engh, now isn't it?

[Garland Bayley]

...
What you have is a tiresome, self-righteous, never-ending rant against people that make different choices than you make, and that's pretty much it.  I know you thrive on that sort of thing, but yelling the same thing over and over and over doesn't make it true or correct; most learn that at a very young age.
...

Define rant and yelling.
This is a discussion group! If David Moriarity and I make logical statements and reasoned arguments that you don't agree with, don't give them attributes that they don't have.

We have already seen where you would accept a falsehood over the truth, because perhaps it is your perception that I am ranting.

As you may see above Patrick Mucci and I don't necessarily have a disagreement like you would suppose.

[DMoriarty]

Patrick I have no qualms with your take on things and generally agree that the that can't walk should have the option of riding.  At the same time I support places like Bandon who are making efforts to rebuild the walking golf ethic.  If I could no longer walk i'd probably take a cart but Try to play at courses that provided me as close as I could come to a traditional golf experience. 

I think most agree with this.  But this really has little or nothing to do with Mr. Engh's courses.  Rather we are concerned with the trend of Mr. Engh and others choosing to build unwalkable courses even though the site could be made walkable for a large portion of golfers.. So on these courses there is no choice.  Everyone rides.  The only choice is whether or not to play.     

[Jay Flemma]

So your whole agenda has been to tell people NOT to play his courses.  That's the whole purpose behind these relentless rude attacks, to demonize Jim and brand him as something you think is bad for the game because you simply won't tolerate something a little different from your own preferences and won't broaden your mind one jot...not even after only playing ONE of his courses.

This is Ran Morrissett's North Star, his raison d'etre...a place where we - his guests - are lucky enough to talk with, and even ask questions of the greatest minds in the golf design.  You just treat people here - including architects who we should be overjoyed to get to know - as a footrag, cross-examining and overlawyering them.  Give it a rest, will ya?  This is a place where gentlemen are supposed to have fun, unwind, and exchange ideas.  You seem to think there's a scoreboard somewhere.  Well your theories will win more respect if you present them more politely instead of trying to conduct depositions and serving endless interrogatories.  After the way you've treated Jim on this thread and the other...why should he even bother giving you the time of day?

You wanna know why I don't participate in threads with you any more?  Because for a man who incessantly demands respect and acts with such superiority, you go about seeking it with a remarkable lack of skill and tact.  You need to change your Internet persona from this overbearing, dominant condescension because people don't look forward to interacting with you with much pleasure.  No one likes internet trolls, so try being nicer.

I know that you could be good company if you chose, and I know you want to be liked and respected.  Well you'll go a lot further if you tone down the lawyer act here and let people be who they are and free to have their own opinions.  

[Garland Bayley]

So your whole agenda has been to tell people NOT to play his courses. 

Well now that one monster bit of flawed reasoning. Actually, we recognize it as an emotional response, not reasoning at all.

[Jay Flemma]

  The only choice is whether or not to play.     

His words, garland.

[Garland Bayley]

The USGA made a some philosophical statements in A Call to Feet. The making and issuing of rules to control competitions is a pragmatic matter. (If they weren't involved in a pragmatic task, then there would be no "decisions".)

I haven't checked with Kalen, but I suspect he understands that we are having a philosophical discussion about golf vs. cart-ball and is happily engaging in a give and take on the matter. He knows I was perfectly willing to walk against his riding in the GRUDGE MATCH, as the original plan was for him to ride with Anthony while I walked. It was only the wonderful break we got on the weather that allowed him to enjoy a walking round with me. He knows I harbor no ill will against him for riding. He also knows had he ridden he would have taken a little bit of ribbing from me.

[C. Squier]

If someone gave up the game because they couldn't walk the golf course, but, could play with the use of a cart,  I'd have to question their golfing soul.

Amen.  I'd reach a conclusion in about 5 nanoseconds too.

[Garland Bayley]

If someone gave up the game because they couldn't walk the golf course, but, could play with the use of a cart,  I'd have to question their golfing soul.

Amen.  I'd reach a conclusion in about 5 nanoseconds too.

I hope you read some of the other responses.

[Garland Bayley]

  The only choice is whether or not to play.     

His words, garland.

And there was a point to this post. 

Every day a golfer has this choice. To play or not to play. That is the question.
The only special significance here that is has it the significance you alone have twisted in your mind.

[Joe Hancock]

Apparently the discussion group is now an evangelical organization.....