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Frank Pasquale

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Divots at Walker Cup
« on: September 19, 2009, 06:27:46 PM »
I was at the Walker Cup on Saturday and we noticed that the players and caddies were not replacing their divots.  My wife is learning the game, and she felt like that was poor etiquette.  My guess was that perhaps the players and caddies were instructed not to replace divots due to the fact that they would have to deal with the onrushing fans moving up the fairways with the players after they hit their approaches.

Does anyone know if there was a specific policy on this?

DMoriarty

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Divots at Walker Cup
« Reply #1 on: September 19, 2009, 07:31:46 PM »
From "Far and Sure" in American Golfer, January 1913. 

In the Merion clubhouse, on the bulletin board, hangs a withered thing which measures about six inchesacross. Under it is this legend:
"This divot was NOT replaced." Like the gruesome severed head of the Chinese malefactor, it is exposed to view as a warning to others. The laws of man say "Thou shalt not kill," but we go farther than the mere writing of the law for we hang the murdered. It is ethical and an unwritten law of golf to replace divots. Our green committees decree that "divots must be replaced," but why stop after the sign is painted? Would it not have a salutary effect if not only the mute evidence of the crime but also other exhibits should hang in the clubs' chambers of horror? For example—a bag of clubs under which might be written: "This kit belonged to O. Nevermindit, once a member of this club, but he would not replace his divots." During the year I recall seeing a sign (I think it was at Wheaton) which read: "A fine of $5 will be imposed on anyone who neglects to replace a divot." At five a throw it's expensive.


But I guess their policy could have changed since then. 
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

JeffTodd

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Divots at Walker Cup
« Reply #2 on: September 19, 2009, 07:39:22 PM »
I didn't notice that, but as I walked the course after play ended on Saturday they had crews out there filling divots with mix.

Adam Clayman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Divots at Walker Cup
« Reply #3 on: September 19, 2009, 07:44:49 PM »
I'm under the impression that unless your divot takes roots and all it will not grow back. So, replacing then just leaves a patch of dead grass. If the divot is left alone the roots will spout new blades in no time.

While this may seem like poor etiquette not to replace them, if the club has a policy not to do so, it would be poorer etiquette to replace them.

The club may have people who fill divots, by replacing them with the old grass would make them harder to find, making the course look worse when the dam thing turns dead and brown.


Any supers want to put this issue to rest?
"It's unbelievable how much you don't know about the game you've been playing your whole life." - Mickey Mantle

Wade Whitehead

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Divots at Walker Cup
« Reply #4 on: September 19, 2009, 08:03:27 PM »
I'm under the impression that unless your divot takes roots and all it will not grow back. So, replacing then just leaves a patch of dead grass. If the divot is left alone the roots will spout new blades in no time.

Doesn't replacing a divot restore the centimeter or two of soil that was removed (even if the grass doesn't take)?  Not replacing them would seem to leave holes, trenches, or whatever the empty space is supposed to be called.

WW

JESII

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Divots at Walker Cup
« Reply #5 on: September 19, 2009, 08:32:02 PM »
WW,

They have a crew that fills in the trenches with premixed stuff...the soil in the abandoned divot will either shred in the mower and find a home or they collect them too, in which case I'm sure they don't waste'em there.
« Last Edit: September 19, 2009, 11:47:28 PM by Jim Sullivan »

Pete_Pittock

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Divots at Walker Cup
« Reply #6 on: September 19, 2009, 09:15:02 PM »
Plus, with the small amount of players it is extremely unlikely a ball will finished in a divot hole.

Adam Clayman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Divots at Walker Cup
« Reply #7 on: September 20, 2009, 08:49:24 AM »
Ww. Under my premise stomping down on the affected area helps mitigate the uneveness. There is another side to it too. When a sportsman finds the adversity they relish it. Others bitch.
"It's unbelievable how much you don't know about the game you've been playing your whole life." - Mickey Mantle

BCrosby

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Divots at Walker Cup
« Reply #8 on: September 20, 2009, 08:53:04 AM »
I have always heard that divots in bent won't grow back and that mix should be used. I have also heard that divots in Bermuda will regrow and that they should be replaced if possible.

Am I misinformed?

Bob

Anthony_Nysse

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Divots at Walker Cup
« Reply #9 on: September 20, 2009, 09:29:25 AM »
I have always heard that divots in bent won't grow back and that mix should be used. I have also heard that divots in Bermuda will regrow and that they should be replaced if possible.

Am I misinformed?

Bob

Bob,
  Sand is better for bermudagrass because of how it grows...and, most of the time, bermudgrass divots just break into pieces. I've always praticed filling the divot with the divot on cool season turf...it will take.

Tony Nysse
Pine Tree GC
Boynton Beach, FL
Anthony J. Nysse
Director of Golf Courses & Grounds
Apogee Club
Hobe Sound, FL

Joe Hancock

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Divots at Walker Cup
« Reply #10 on: September 20, 2009, 10:03:52 AM »
I'm under the impression that unless your divot takes roots and all it will not grow back. So, replacing then just leaves a patch of dead grass. If the divot is left alone the roots will spout new blades in no time.


If the regime at *erion is as lean, dry and mean as we've been led to believe, this approach...*excuse me for this*...doesn't hold water....

My point is that none of the grasses rebound quickly if left to be dry.

Joe
" What the hell is the point of architecture and excellence in design if a "clever" set up trumps it all?" Peter Pallotta, June 21, 2016

"People aren't picking a side of the fairway off a tee because of a randomly internally contoured green ."  jeffwarne, February 24, 2017

BCrosby

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Divots at Walker Cup
« Reply #11 on: September 20, 2009, 11:32:30 AM »
Tony - At my course in Atlanta, Bermuda "pelts" often remain intact and we put them back in the divots. They seem to reroot quickly and after a week or so they are invisible. We fill with sand mix if the grass can't be or isn't replaced.

I assume that's a standard practice in the SE.

My question was a different one. Will bent reroot if returned to the divot? Is the best practice on bent fw's in the north to fill divots with mix because bent will not reroot?

Bob



 

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Divots at Walker Cup
« Reply #12 on: September 20, 2009, 11:54:12 AM »
Its all starting to make sense now.  When I was watching the TV coverage, I coulda swore I saw someone that looked exactly like Joe standing in the middle of a fairway sniffing a divot.  Once a golf perv, always a golf perv I guess!!   ;D

Chris Cupit

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Divots at Walker Cup
« Reply #13 on: September 20, 2009, 12:43:23 PM »
Tony - At my course in Atlanta, Bermuda "pelts" often remain intact and we put them back in the divots. They seem to reroot quickly and after a week or so they are invisible. We fill with sand mix if the grass can't be or isn't replaced.

I assume that's a standard practice in the SE.

My question was a different one. Will bent reroot if returned to the divot? Is the best practice on bent fw's in the north to fill divots with mix because bent will not reroot?

Bob



 
That is certainly the opposite experiience I have had with bermuda.  It was my experience that it was a bent "pelt" that was replaceable and have had no luck with Bermuda staying together. 

At my club we removed sand bottles to keep members from pouring sand in the bermuda.  We have a small group that goes out each afternoon to do this and we have noticed far fewer divots.  It is also cheaper for us than trying to keep bottles filled, re-filling "stations" on the course filled and a significant number of members would routinely over-fill divots that had my mechanic furious about all the dulled mower blades.

In our situation we asked members to "kick in" the bermuda divot slightly but take the time they saved from divot filling and focus on fixing ball marks.  So far it has worked well.  In Atlanta today, though, I bet you could get really nice bermuda pelts given the seemingly endless rain :)

BCrosby

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Divots at Walker Cup
« Reply #14 on: September 20, 2009, 01:34:47 PM »
Chris - Interesting. Our Bermuda pelts often hold together and are easy to snug back into divots. Well more than half the time in my experience. When they don't hold together, we fill the divots with a sand mix provided.

Your practice of not supplying sand bottles and having staff refill divots is also very interesting as a cost saving measure. I will raise it as an idea at our next committee meeting. I would have thought that using staff to do that would be the more expensive alternative. But maybe I don't have a good handle on the real costs of keeping up sand containers for players.

Bob

Joe Hancock

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Divots at Walker Cup
« Reply #15 on: September 20, 2009, 02:03:41 PM »
Its all starting to make sense now.  When I was watching the TV coverage, I coulda swore I saw someone that looked exactly like Joe standing in the middle of a fairway sniffing a divot.  Once a golf perv, always a golf perv I guess!!   ;D

The drier ones do more for me, in that regard.....wholesome and earthy, one you could bring home to mother....but still, a divot....

 ;D
" What the hell is the point of architecture and excellence in design if a "clever" set up trumps it all?" Peter Pallotta, June 21, 2016

"People aren't picking a side of the fairway off a tee because of a randomly internally contoured green ."  jeffwarne, February 24, 2017

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Divots at Walker Cup
« Reply #16 on: September 20, 2009, 02:11:13 PM »
Its all starting to make sense now.  When I was watching the TV coverage, I coulda swore I saw someone that looked exactly like Joe standing in the middle of a fairway sniffing a divot.  Once a golf perv, always a golf perv I guess!!   ;D

The drier ones do more for me, in that regard.....wholesome and earthy, one you could bring home to mother....but still, a divot....

 ;D

First it was plain ol' bunker sluts,
Then it was frilly hairy bunker sluts,

Now GCA.com has its very own divot slut to boot!!  Congratz Joe, good work!!  ;D

Chris Cupit

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Divots at Walker Cup
« Reply #17 on: September 20, 2009, 03:23:35 PM »
Bob,

Here is our sand bottle experience and right up front I will tell you a vocal minority hate it.

Like all the other lemmings ;) about fifteen years ago we ordered our golf carts with sand buckets and placed them on our carts.  Some people have been excellent about filling divots when they played but many would over fill divots and dull mower blades and many never bothered to fill divots at all.  Some members did not feel it was their "job" to do this >:( but when I heard that  I pretty much ignored anything else they had to say ;)  On days of cart path only almost no one bothered carrying the sand out to the fairway (I am a fully private club so this is member behaviour).

Also, as a player I hated sand filled divots--Assuming I wasn't in a divot the depth of a shallow grave I prefer being on bare dirt in a divot to a "micro-bunker" anyway.

One of the biggest headaches was about sand containers not filled properly, sand bins on the course needing replacement, and of course complaints that the group in front wasn't filling divots.  I analyzed the cost of the sand containers on each cart and the cost of numerous large sand bins on the course that held extra sand for re-fills.  Few people re-filled their containers but the re-fill containers had to be tended to a lot--if they were off to the side of a path they would get hit by carts.  If they were on the grass, unless you could move them every day, you had dead circles everywhere.

The real cost was removing every sand funnel from every cart at night, filling or topping them off, stacking the now filled funnel on a shelf and then having the morning guys re-loading each funnel on each cart as it is pulled out.  Unless we did this carts could go out with empty sand funnels and that would be a source of complaints (and rightfully so).  Also we built (or you could buy) extra stands where golfers could replace empty funnels with new ones.  Again this is more time and yet another tiny area to "manage" and it just wasn't worth the headaches at the end of the day especially when I estimated that at best, 10-25% of the membership made a habit of using the funnels themselves.

The new system has the club filling all the divots in the fairway and on the par three tees.  I know I am filling more divots and filling them correctly.  I can also send the kids to problem areas, low spots, fairway landing areas where people lay up a bunch, etc.  At a recent meeting it was absolutely given that the new system puts out more sand.  The cost is three minimum wage teenagers three days a week for three hour shifts.  Usually one kid can take a carryall full of sand and finish one nine from 4-7 PM.  Two days later the next nine is done and the last shift will take care of all the par threes and any "problem spots".    It is about 10 hours a week @$7.50.  These after school kids have done a great job.  The biggest obstacle is that some of the members feel like they should do something with the divots.

The new system really does work better but each club may have a different experience.l 

JMEvensky

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Divots at Walker Cup
« Reply #18 on: September 21, 2009, 09:41:19 AM »
Chris Cupit,we had the exact same issues and resolved them the exact same way.The "complaints" we now get are from the ones who were most dutiful in filling in divots correctly.They don't see why everyone else couldn't fill in divots properly so they see our using bag boys as wasted expense.

TEPaul

Re: Divots at Walker Cup
« Reply #19 on: September 21, 2009, 10:00:01 AM »
Very interesting thread because this whole thing has become a real question to me and it's been brought up and discussed a few times in the last couple of green committee meetings.

At first I just said it was always common practice in golf for golfers to replace their divots and so my question was why we did that if perhaps a majority of those replaced divots did not make it back with regrowth. Our super says most just don't these days perhaps because our fairways are drier now.

His feeling is because of that it's a waste of time to continue the policy of asking members and caddies to put divots back because eventually the maintenance crew is going to have to remove dead divots anyway and fill them in with divot mix (so it's better and a time saver to throw away all divots and start the regrowth immediately with divot mix). So we have the caddies refilling them with walking golfers and players filling them who take carts with divot mix bottles on both sides of all carts.

However, with a club like Merion that has an enormous crew I think they prefer to just have the crew fill divots with divot mix instead of caddies (Merion East only has about six carts ;) ) because they know how to fill those divot holes better than the caddies do.

Ordinarily, I would actually quote what Merion's terrific superintendent said on this subject but unfortunately what he actually said would be considered XXX-rated on THIS "Family Style" website!  ;)
« Last Edit: September 21, 2009, 10:03:22 AM by TEPaul »

ChipOat

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Divots at Walker Cup
« Reply #20 on: September 21, 2009, 10:13:21 AM »
I'm not aware of any club policy that discourages members and guests from replacing divots.  I do believe that the grounds crew ultimately removes the dead chunks of grass and fills in the hole with seed, but I'm sure that, for every day play, it is still SOP at Merion to (temporarily) fill in the hole and not leave ugly clumps of grass and dirt lying around.

At any rate, I still do it wherever I'm playing unless I'm using a cart that has a jug of grass seed or there's a box of mix on a par 3 tee box.
« Last Edit: September 21, 2009, 03:31:22 PM by chipoat »

TEPaul

Re: Divots at Walker Cup
« Reply #21 on: September 21, 2009, 10:47:49 AM »
"I'm not aware of any club policy that discourages members and guests from replace divots."


Chipperino:

My club (Gulph Mills GC) now very much discourages the replacing of divots. Our new policy is strictly the use of divot mix not divot replacement.  Our super even insists on the use of green divot mix. He says it not only looks better, it also works better.

DMoriarty

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Divots at Walker Cup
« Reply #22 on: September 21, 2009, 11:52:11 AM »
I'm under the impression that unless your divot takes roots and all it will not grow back. So, replacing then just leaves a patch of dead grass. If the divot is left alone the roots will spout new blades in no time.


If the regime at *erion is as lean, dry and mean as we've been led to believe, this approach...*excuse me for this*...doesn't hold water....

My point is that none of the grasses rebound quickly if left to be dry.

Joe

Don't be so cynical Joe.  Maybe they hand ladel a carefully measured scoop of water into each divot.
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

BCrosby

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Divots at Walker Cup
« Reply #23 on: September 21, 2009, 02:07:10 PM »
Chris -

Great stuff. Many thanks. We have similar problems. People either overfill divots or don't fill them at all. Which means we now have the worst of all worlds. We are paying for the upkeep and distribution of sand funnels and sending people out after play to fix things, though we don't send staff out every evening. I'm not sure what the frequency is.

Bob

ChipOat

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Divots at Walker Cup
« Reply #24 on: September 21, 2009, 03:35:48 PM »
Tom Paul,

I meant, specifically, at Merion.  Gulph Mills has always discouraged its members from performing any kind of manual labor.  Instead, that sort of thing is best left to the chauffeur, butler, gardener, footman, chamber maid, etc.

That's still in the club's by-laws, is it not?

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