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Jim Steel

Riviera's Latest Outrage
« on: April 21, 2002, 09:47:39 PM »
I played Riviera yesterday and noticed that a temporary green is being constructed next to the par three 14th hole.  I was told that management has decided to dig up the entire green and move it.

I asked five members about this, and they said that management never advises the members of course design changes.

Geoff Shackelford:  What is happening at Riviera?  Were you advised of this change?  Why is the 14th green being moved?  

I also learned  that the USGA has decided to award the 2008 US Open to Torrey Pines.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

tony petersen

Re: Riviera's Latest Outrage
« Reply #1 on: April 22, 2002, 02:07:08 AM »
That's great news for Torrey Pines. Played the South course this spring after Rees Jones had his way... Have to admit that I was pretty impressed. As far as Riviera is concerned, if you ever need a fourth, let me know ;D ;D ;D
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

TEPaul

Re: Riviera's Latest Outrage
« Reply #2 on: April 22, 2002, 04:01:09 AM »
I believe we all heard the possibility of moving #14 green during all the discussion about Riviera preceding the LA Open. It was mentioned as part of the "next step".

Adding tees and increasing length that way is one thing, not a great thing but it's certainly not as destructive as getting into wholesale alteration of the body of holes, but moving a green is worse than anything.

I have never heard why they think that's necessary. What's wrong with #14 green now? If people like the Shackelfords were incensed and depressed by the alterations that preceded the LA Open I can hardly imagine what they think of something like wiping away and moving one of Riviera's greens!
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Lynn_Shackelford

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Riviera's Latest Outrage
« Reply #3 on: April 22, 2002, 11:25:56 AM »
I am out of there soon,  that's what I think of it.  But not before letting the owner know what I think of his modernization program.

The powers that be think you have to have 18 hard, difficult holes.  14th is the 18 handicap hole.  It is different than any other hole, especially par 3, and a respite between the long 13th and 15th. They don't think like that though.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
It must be kept in mind that the elusive charm of the game suffers as soon as any successful method of standardization is allowed to creep in.  A golf course should never pretend to be, nor is intended to be, an infallible tribunal.
               Tom Simpson

Mike_Cirba

Re: Riviera's Latest Outrage
« Reply #4 on: April 22, 2002, 11:35:04 AM »
Isn't this consistent with a certain famous architect's stated belief  that the golden age architects were technologically-impaired from "fashioning" 18 "signature holes"?

Heaven forbid a golf course have ebbs, flows, variety, and harmonious balance, much like a symphony.  That just sounds like discord to some of these modernists, apparently.  ::)


« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Tyler Kearns

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Riviera's Latest Outrage
« Reply #5 on: April 22, 2002, 01:11:19 PM »
Mike,
       I couldn't agree with you more, since when did golf evolve into an endurance test of 18 merciless holes that exact severe penalties that can render an afternoon sour by the 4th tee.
      Holes that are deemed "easy" or "weak" should not mean that they have no architectural or golfing merit. I find that these so called "easy" holes (ie. 350yd or less par 4) can be a good mental test in the middle of a round. On the card, and by design many are good birdie opportunities, but the golfer can be easily lulled into mental relaxation resulting in extremely vexing bogeys.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Jim Steel

Re: Riviera's Latest Outrage
« Reply #6 on: April 22, 2002, 09:44:31 PM »
:'(Lynn:  Where are you going?

You son's course (with G. Hanse) received a nice review in Golf World.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Mike Hollander

Re: Riviera's Latest Outrage
« Reply #7 on: April 23, 2002, 10:15:15 PM »
I support all of the changes at Riviera. With the great distances that touring professionals are hitting the ball, it is necessary to Tiger-proof the courses to prevent low scores.

I congratulate Mike Yamaki for having the courage to make the necessary changes to Riviera.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

David Kelly

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Riviera's Latest Outrage
« Reply #8 on: April 23, 2002, 11:58:54 PM »
I take it that you are joking Mike Hollander. At least I hope so.  Maybe instead of Tiger-proofing it they are going to make it as long and hard as possible so that Tiger can actually win there.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
"Whatever in creation exists without my knowledge exists without my consent." - Judge Holden, Blood Meridian.

Brad Klein

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Riviera's Latest Outrage
« Reply #9 on: April 24, 2002, 03:44:42 AM »
Let's see. If the 18-handicap 14th hole gets "toughened" through mere lengthening (which, of course. are not the same thing, nor necessarily desirable), that would leave, by my mathematical calculations, another hole as the 18-handicap. I'd have to presume the 10th hole. So the next year let's hack up that hole, and the year after, the next 18-handicap hole. Sounds like a plan.

The obvious problem with this plan, however, is that by focusing on the 18-handicap hole, you only destroy year by year a hole on the back nine in the name of toughening.. That's a good 9-year Master Plan, but leaves untouched the front nine.

I would suggest a more far-reaching, ambitious long-term plan whereby the powers-that-be systematically address the weaknesses of the two-hardest holes, one on each nine. Now that would show foresight and long-term vision.

My suggestion: add a new tee atop the clubhouse. This could be used to lengthen the first hole and turn it into "a real" par-5. If built large enoiugh, it could also be used on a right angle as the new tee for the longer, improved 10th hole, which as we all know is not a true par-4 hole anyway.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

TEPaul

Re: Riviera's Latest Outrage
« Reply #10 on: April 24, 2002, 07:34:09 AM »
Mike Hollander:

I love it! Your post could be the best I've ever seen on Golfclubatlas for starting an instant food fight.

For starters, even the greatest original advocates of "Tiger Proofing" seem now to realize altering and lengthening golf courses was an ill-conceived idea with Tiger in mind!

At first blush they got their words skewed--it was "Tiger Proofing" originally but more realistically it should have been "Tiger Proving", like the optimal way to alter and set up a golf course in such a way as to "prove" how a known phenomenon would almost be guaranteed to win!
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:04 PM by -1 »

Mike_Cirba

Re: Riviera's Latest Outrage
« Reply #11 on: April 24, 2002, 07:47:11 AM »
I have a better idea;

Since today's modern architect is so intrinsically superior, and not handicapped by outmoded construction technologies, why don't they just plow it under and start over.   ::)

This piecemeal stuff is just a slow death...Riviera deserved better.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Bob_Huntley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Riviera's Latest Outrage
« Reply #12 on: April 24, 2002, 09:26:42 AM »
Lynn Shackleford:

Do they still have the Green Monster Day Tourney at the Club? The pins were put in some wacky positions and the tees were waaay back, I think Tiger would have a problem there.

I've always thought that to make Riviera resistant to scoring, allow the rough grow to four inches and no one would break par.
  
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Tim_Weiman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Riviera's Latest Outrage
« Reply #13 on: April 24, 2002, 10:52:23 AM »
Tom Paul:

I don't know whether Mike Hollander has started a food fight.  We may have already given up on Riviera to care much any more.

Anyway, I will credit Mike for one thing: at least he avoided the anonymous attack and had the courtesy to sign his name.

That wins points in my book.

Mike Hollander:

Welcome aboard!  Maybe you can share your views on why lengthening courses will "Tiger proof" them?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
Tim Weiman

Tom Anderson

Re: Riviera's Latest Outrage
« Reply #14 on: April 24, 2002, 01:05:23 PM »
So Fazio creates his own courses which are pushovers and devoid of any meaningful strategy and then toughens the classics beyond what should rightfully be.  I see........
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Tom Anderson

Re: Riviera's Latest Outrage
« Reply #15 on: April 24, 2002, 01:05:31 PM »
So Fazio creates his own courses which are pushovers and devoid of any meaningful strategy and then toughens the classics beyond what should rightfully be.  I see........
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Mike_Cirba

Re: Riviera's Latest Outrage
« Reply #16 on: April 24, 2002, 01:31:42 PM »
Tom Anderson,

Yes, you've stated it perfectly.  Thanks for summarizing.  

You know, I hate the be lumped in with those who just bash certain architects, but I must admit that your post ticked me off, because it offers no valid rationale for making the changes being discussed here.  It simply is meant to offend those who believe such changes are not only unnecessary, but based on his track record (i.e Oak Hill, Inverness), will be ultimately to the detriment of the course.

There is a certain arrogance at play in Mr. Fazio's approach to just suggesting massive changes to courses that have been loved and respected through decades, and the fact he is capitalizing on technology run amok to do so is quite irritating and more than a little opportunistic.  

I have always judged his original courses without any favoritism, and in fact like some of them a great deal, but his "restoration" work, as it's euphemistically called, flat out sucks in most cases.  
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:04 PM by -1 »

Tom Anderson

Re: Riviera's Latest Outrage
« Reply #17 on: April 24, 2002, 05:06:20 PM »
Mike

I am sorry to have ticked you off.  I have very strong feelings about the Fazio topics too.  Let me enumerate.

Tom Fazio is probably the most often discussed modern architect on this site.  It stands to reason that his work at some of the 'classics' is the cause of this.  I understand that there is, and always will be, a faction of individuals who feel replacing one blade of grass on one of the deified golden age courses is tantamount to heresy.  I appreciate how they feel -I really do.

Mike, what I have not been able to appreciate is how the displeasure with this aspect of Fazio's work paints him in the light in which he is so often represented here.  

Tom Fazio began his career working for his uncle.  16 hour days on equipment doing the work.  He put in his dues.  He grew his company, his name, and has become very successful.

Many of his detractors here  - I doubt, have any experience in any aspect of golf course design or construction.  They have never routed a course, developed budgets, drawn a grading plan, interviewed contractors, etc.  Nor have they floated a fairway, built a bunker, installed drainage, or had any understanding of the actually physical construction of a golf course.  Does this  exclude their criticism?  No.  Does it put it in perspective?  Yes.

Tom Fazio has designed 10 of the top 100 courses in the United States.  His recent designs at Briggs Ranch in San Antonio, TX, Shady Canyon in Irvine, CA, and Aldarra in Seattle, WA, are excellent examples of strategic, thought provoking, and ultimately, great golf.

Whether or not you agree with his recent redesign work - Tom Fazio is a damn good golf course architect.  
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

George Pazin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Riviera's Latest Outrage
« Reply #18 on: April 24, 2002, 06:41:38 PM »
Nice soapbox speech, Tom. Care to give one explanation for why Mr. Fazio is doing what he's doing to the classic courses he's working on?

Sorry, but "I'm doing the client's bidding" doesn't sit well with me. Neither does poorly researched attempts to "restore the architect's original intent."

There's probably as many defenders as critics out there, but somehow the critics are the only ones making specific points that remain as yet unanswered.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Riviera's Latest Outrage
« Reply #19 on: April 24, 2002, 08:33:15 PM »
Lynn Shackelford,

Has anyone written a non-confrontational, well constructed letter to the individual/owner responsible for these changes,
explaining the architectual/historical significance of retaining the original design intent, and the loss the course would suffer as a result of alterations, with a copy to Fazio ?

Sometimes the written word has a significant impact.
It can be copied, referenced, and diseminated without losing its clear intent and without placing the recipient in an embarrasing or defensive position.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Mike_Cirba

Re: Riviera's Latest Outrage
« Reply #20 on: April 24, 2002, 08:54:54 PM »
Tom Anderson,

I heartily agree with you.  Tom Fazio is a gifted golf course architect.  That is indisputable, and I doubt neither his work ethic or talent.

I have played a number of his original courses that I've enjoyed, and as you say, some are truly strategically interesting and challenging.  Particularly those courses that he built in the late 80s, and early 90s, when he was limiting his work to a maximum of six projects per year seemed to exhibit some excellent work.

At his best, Tom Fazio is able to mix holes that both delight the senses while remaining thought provoking.  However, I would argue two major points that I believe is at the heart of what others here are voicing.

1) The Fazio organization, by virtue of its success, has spread itself woefully thin in recent years, to the point where the true gems are becoming more and more difficult to discover amidst all the man-made, beautiful fluff.  The courses where Mr. Fazio actually puts in the highest degree of personal effort, such as Victoria National, seem to garner the highest praise and recognition.  However, that does not hide the fact that his "batting average" seems to have fallen precipitously, and many here find the majority of his current work to be without true strategic interest, with the focus instead on creating a pretty, but ultimately vapid picture.  Case in point to me is his work at Pine Hill, where a fabulous site yielded very little despite a lot of money and hype thrown around.

2) Despite being spread so thin on new projects, Mr. Fazio has offered his work pro bono to classic clubs.  If there is a reason for this beyond vanity and the wish to "make his mark" on those beloved and historic courses, then I wish you would enlighten us.  The work done has caused such an uproar simply because many find it wildly inconsistent with the architectural intent of those courses, and believe that Mr. Fazio exhibits almost a willing disregard (i.e. his oft repeated statements that he is not the least bit influenced by classic architects, who he seems to hold in some disdain) in keeping his work congrous with the decades of history that came before him.  

If we are so touchy about changing a blade of grass on these wonderful courses, as you claim, then why do we also so often herald the restoration work of so many other architects, who let ego take a back seat to doing what is best for the golf course?  Are we simply biased?  Are we jealous of Tom Fazio's success?  Why wouldn't we wish that he made our greatest courses even better, and wish him the best with each of those opportunities?  

No, instead, I believe it's simply a case of his "restoration" work sticking out like a sore thumb in many cases, under the simplistic rationales of "progress", "defending against technology", and "the wishes of the owner".  Look, Tom...Mr. Fazio has enough success and money and reputation to not have to kowtow to anyone or any of those reasons.  The fact he does so makes many here scratch their head in bewilderment as to his motivations and the fact that many of those important projects get nary a site visit from Tom (his first and even second level associates are instead doing the actual design and construction work) makes us wonder about his commitment to doing the right thing for those courses.

No, I haven't designed a detailed drainage plan, but I, like others here, are paying consumers of his product.  We have a right to say when we are given pablum and told it's champagne.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:04 PM by -1 »

Lynn_Shackelford

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Riviera's Latest Outrage
« Reply #21 on: April 24, 2002, 10:35:24 PM »
Bob H.
Yes, they still play the green monster, but like most things in life there is an attempt to make it "fair".  The long holes are played using scramble drive.  They use hole placements which are playable, where as before they use to play some goofy ones.  These reasons and a 5 1/2 round have put me on the sidelines.  I forgot to ask you, do you remember Rocky?  Dean Martin bought her a membership when she was 19.  How did she look at 19?  She still has a great game.

Pat
Yes, there will be a letter written by me to the owner.  I think he is being told by staff that relations with the USGA are great, Open will come any day now, players love the alterations.  The members have had their heads beaten in so many times they have given up.  Frankly when I explain problems with the redesign, I get blank looks from many.

Mike
Great response to Mr. Anderson.  I have not found one person who has seen Tom Fazio at Riviera in the past 3 years.  Maybe he has been there, but he slipped in and out very quickly.  I hope Mr. Anderson isn't too critical of Hal Sutton's thoughts on the redesign.

See you all at Rustic Canyon.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
It must be kept in mind that the elusive charm of the game suffers as soon as any successful method of standardization is allowed to creep in.  A golf course should never pretend to be, nor is intended to be, an infallible tribunal.
               Tom Simpson

Lynn_Shackelford

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Riviera's Latest Outrage
« Reply #22 on: April 24, 2002, 10:39:49 PM »
Oh I forgot.  The new superintendent, Matt (this is his first head super job), is a nice guy.  But how would you supers like to be able to operate this way.  Next week only 9 holes will be open each day, Mon-Thurs. so they can aerify the greens.  This is a first.  No explanation why this is necessary.  Maybe because they have so much to punch, alternative greens now on 4 holes, 5 soon with the 14th redo.
Hope I don't sound like a whiner, just find the direction depressing.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
It must be kept in mind that the elusive charm of the game suffers as soon as any successful method of standardization is allowed to creep in.  A golf course should never pretend to be, nor is intended to be, an infallible tribunal.
               Tom Simpson

Tim_Weiman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Riviera's Latest Outrage
« Reply #23 on: April 24, 2002, 10:47:00 PM »
Tom Anderson:

Can you explain what you meant about the "perspective" of critics who play but do not build golf courses?

If we relied on people in the golf industry, how much serious criticism would we get?

How would we know which golf courses are worth getting on a plane to see and which are not?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
Tim Weiman

David Wigler

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Riviera's Latest Outrage
« Reply #24 on: April 25, 2002, 06:15:23 AM »
Tom,

I am one of Fazio's staunchest defenders.  As you know, I have been on the opposite side of many arguments on this site defending Fazio.  I believe that he builds courses that are imminently playable.  Any top 20 list without Shadow Creek is simply inaccurate.  Flint Hills National and Victoria National are brilliant pieces of work.  They have all of the necessary components of greatness.  He can design a new course in my book any day of the week.

That written, his restoration work is puke.  I play Inverness several times a year as it is near my house.  It is a fantastic 16-hole golf course.  What was Fazio thinking?  I have never played Oak Hill but have heard others make similar comments.  I have only seen pictures of the work at Merion, but it seemed incongruous with the rest of the course.  Why would an Architect who has publicly stated that he has no interest in restoration, only renovation want to get these jobs?  The answer is obviously legacy and hubris.  If I could have one private conversation with Fazio, I would beg him to rest his legacy on his new work.

Golf as a sport has two very unique aspects.  Amateurs can play the same equipment as the professionals (Why I hope there will never be a tournament ball) and play the same courses.  It was an incredible rush for me to play the last three holes at Olympic even par knowing that if Palmer had done the same, he would have won the Open.  At Southern Hills, I placed balls where Goosen, Brooks and Cink had to get down in two and got two of the three of them done.  I know the situation was different, but the rush is unmistakable.   I have not yet had the opportunity to play Merion or Augusta.  Because of Fazio, I will never be able to play the Augusta that Nicklaus brought me to tears at in 1986.  Because of Fazio, I will never be able to play the Merion that is represented in the photo of Hogan that sits in my office.  Now because of Fazio, my son will never be able to play the Riviera that he hears his dad so lovingly speak of.  I just do not believe Fazio gets it!
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
And I took full blame then, and retain such now.  My utter ignorance in not trumpeting a course I have never seen remains inexcusable.
Tom Huckaby 2/24/04