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Phil McDade

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Re: Langford restoration - help needed
« Reply #25 on: September 19, 2009, 04:00:35 PM »

On a side observation, it seems to me that the maintenance on the green side Bs on 8 and 9 are cut up higher into the mound face than are typically L&M originals.  I don't think it is a big deal, and with a little flashing, maybe it give the player standing away from the approach, a better sense of the scope of the green side Bs and steepness to the putting surface.  But, I just think on a technical level, those are cut and flashed a little much for a true L&M intent.

Just a fine job Phil...  ;) ;D 8)

RJ -- Thanks -- I'm only riffing on the fine photos that you and Dan have provided. ;)

I, too, in looking at these pictures this morning, noticed the somewhat more flashed look of the West Bend bunkers relative to the Lawsonia bunkers. It's interesting to note just how flat those Lawsonia bunkers surfaces are -- perhaps Langford (and Moreau, it should be added!) wanted to compensate for the fairly penal nature of those big bunkers by assuring the golfer a level lie if he has the misfortune of landing in one. ;D


Phil McDade

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Re: Langford restoration - help needed
« Reply #26 on: September 19, 2009, 06:33:32 PM »
Mike

If I didn't know any better I would have thought those pictures were taken from a course Tom and I had a chance to play back in the early 90s called Harrison Hills, a 9 hole course that was turned into 18 by Tim Liddy.  If you like BOLD shapes, He was the guy.

  Looks like a great place to play.  I believe Kye is right, it's about timing and budgets.

P.G. A. West stadium course has some of the same bold features.  # 16 (San Andreas Fault) has that Bold look as well as a few other holes.  I think Pete had seen a few Langford golf courses before he built The Stadium Course.

JC:

West Bend is the course -- according to some second-hand but reliable sources -- that Pete Dye once played and raved about afterwards (paraphrasing, or words to these effect): "I just played the most wonderful Seth Raynor course in Wisconsin."


Mike McGuire

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Re: Langford restoration - help needed
« Reply #27 on: September 19, 2009, 09:19:33 PM »

JC:

West Bend is the course -- according to some second-hand but reliable sources -- that Pete Dye once played and raved about afterwards (paraphrasing, or words to these effect): "I just played the most wonderful Seth Raynor course in Wisconsin."



Phil

Pete Dye played WBCC during the period he was building Whistling Straits. After his round he was asked by a past President of the club what he thought about the course. His response (paraphrasing) 'don't touch the front nine, it's great' has been used as an a literal argument to do nothing with the nine. I wonder if Pete Dye would have sand in the bunkers at WBCC if he was consulting? Can someone ask him?


Jeff Goldman

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Re: Langford restoration - help needed
« Reply #28 on: September 19, 2009, 11:44:51 PM »
Mike,

Does the membership understand the differences between the 2 nines? 

Jeff
That was one hellacious beaver.

Mike McGuire

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Re: Langford restoration - help needed
« Reply #29 on: September 20, 2009, 09:30:03 AM »
Mike,

Does the membership understand the differences between the 2 nines? 

Jeff

Most agree the front is better than the back. Most also know that we had a design for the back by Langford but did not use it when it came time to build the back in 1960. Not only was the Langford plan not used but the new nine was routed in the opposite direction.

Interestingly I was was speaking with someone last night who thought our 1960 nine was the old one. Short holes with round small greens, pitched back to front. The highly engineered front side features appear newer somehow. Not the first time I have heard this.

One of the arguments against working on the front is " The back nine needs help, do that first"  Problem is the work on the back will be more expensive. A lot of the work on the front can be done easily, like  adding sand in a green side bunker that has the original shaping intact (35-40º banks on #3).

Tom MacWood

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Re: Langford restoration - help needed
« Reply #30 on: September 20, 2009, 09:55:53 AM »
Wow, West Bend looks like a fabulous golf course.

Tom MacWood

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Re: Langford restoration - help needed
« Reply #31 on: September 20, 2009, 10:19:13 AM »
Tom,

I grew up on a Langford course built in 1927 with no sand in most of the steep bunkers.  I have a theory on why it, and some other Langford courses from a similar time ( late 20's),  don't, or did not, have sand initially.

I assume, like ours, most of his courses  built at that time did not have irrigation, especially in the small towns they seem to be in.  If that is true, and the bunker faces  were not sodded (again unlikely) then trying to grow-in the faces of those steep Langford bunkers would take  quite some time.  I doubt you would want to waste money and install sand in the bunkers until there was a solid stand of grass on the faces or else they would quickly turn into contaminated messes.  

If my theory has any validity, and the idea was to wait until the faces grew in to install sand, could it simply be that by the time the grass was established the economic conditions of The Depression prohibited the sand installation?  And then, by the time WW2 was over, it just did not happen as players were used to the course as it was or money was being dedicated to other things.... like  adding a row of fairway irriigation and lining each hole with trees! :)

I am curious what the rest of you think about this idea?

Kye
Your theory makes sense. I wonder if Langford & Moreau targeted or specialized in small midwest towns with limited budgets. They built a lot of nine hole golf courses. Here is an interesting article from 1924, the pictures are not the best but I don't believe there is sand in these bunkers either. I love the way they contoured some of those fairways here and at West Bend.
« Last Edit: September 20, 2009, 10:24:36 AM by Tom MacWood »

Phil McDade

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Re: Langford restoration - help needed
« Reply #32 on: September 20, 2009, 11:20:30 AM »
Tom:

I'm not entirely sure the fairways at West Bend are "contoured," if by that you mean dirt moved to provide contouring. Langford and Moreau moved a lot of dirt for their greensites, bunkers and fairway mounding, but at least on the Langford courses I've played, they tended to simply use the lay of the land for their fairway corridors (e.g., that "saddle" opening on WBend's par 5 6th is a natural feature of the land -- leftover glacial remnants found all over east-central Wisconsin.) It's an interesting contrast, and one of the reasons I think L/M courses are interesting pieces to study -- the use of both minimalism in routing and highly engineered add-ons like bunkering and greens and internal green contouring.

Tom MacWood

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Re: Langford restoration - help needed
« Reply #33 on: September 20, 2009, 11:32:15 AM »
Phil
I agree the contouring does look mostly natural, however I wonder if Langford did some enhancing of the natural contours. Minimalism is a not a term I would normally associate with Langford. Are are couple of pictures.
« Last Edit: September 20, 2009, 12:49:25 PM by Tom MacWood »

George_Bahto

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Re: Langford restoration - help needed
« Reply #34 on: September 20, 2009, 11:35:22 AM »
Kye - I also think your analysis is pretty spot on.

I’d vote for sand in the bunkers.

George Bahto
If a player insists on playing his maximum power on his tee-shot, it is not the architect's intention to allow him an overly wide target to hit to but rather should be allowed this privilege of maximum power except under conditions of exceptional skill.
   Wethered & Simpson

Phil McDade

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Re: Langford restoration - help needed
« Reply #35 on: September 20, 2009, 02:50:56 PM »
Tom:

Those features aren't all that different than what you'd find in terms of the use of the natural folds of the land at Erin Hills. I hesitate to bring up that course, because the focus of this thread is on West Bend, but Erin Hills was an attempt to use glacial features in their natural state to design and route a course (newer changes notwithstanding). West Bend has a few of these features as well, particularly holes #6, 7, and 9, as those were routed by Langford through a heavily wooded area that features glacial leftovers like kettles and kames. Mike would obviously know better than I, but I don't believe those folds in the land depicted in the photos involve any earth-moving.

Here is some background on the Wisconsin kettle moraine area; a few other courses besides Erin Hills -- Quit-Qui-Oc near Elkhart Lake, which Bendelow had a hand in, comes to mind -- feature similar uses of glacial leftovers in interesting ways.

http://www.dnr.state.wi.us/org/land/parks/specific/kmscenicdrive/forestgeology.html

I'm not sure I'd call Langford a minimalist, but he really moved very little land in terms of his routing of fairways, from what I've seen. He moved lots of it for greensites, bunkers, and fairway mounding/bunkering. A very good example of this is how he used the lay of the land at Spring Valley (Salem WI) to route a very interesting 18 holes.

Bryan Bergner

Re: Langford restoration - help needed
« Reply #36 on: September 20, 2009, 05:57:09 PM »
Mike:

Given that, I have played Westmoor and Ozaukee (twice) this year.   Some dramatic bunkering as well.  I don’t hear complaints by their members regarding sand bunkers, perhaps the difference is that the members at these clubs never knew anything but sand bunkers.  Is the thought of change the real issue?  Sorry I can’t point you squarely on the right path. 


David

You're correct about the complaints regarding our new bunkers.  We don't get very many.  We do hear complaints that when the ball stays up on the steep grass face instead of rolling down into the sand. 

BB

Tom MacWood

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Re: Langford restoration - help needed
« Reply #37 on: September 20, 2009, 06:36:05 PM »
Phil
I agree with you that most of his fairways do reflect the natural terrain, on the other hand I detect an Landscaper Architecture influence in some of their contours and mounds. After all Langford was a civil engineer and Moreau a Landscape Architect. They even advertised that their company offered landscape engineering services, although I have no knowledge of any landscape engineering they did beyond golf course construction.

By the way I was wrong about Culver not having bunkers from the beginning. Here is an aerial from 1951 (from Ran's review).

Mike McGuire

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Re: Langford restoration - help needed
« Reply #38 on: September 20, 2009, 10:22:35 PM »

On a side observation, it seems to me that the maintenance on the green side Bs on 8 and 9 are cut up higher into the mound face than are typically L&M originals.  I don't think it is a big deal, and with a little flashing, maybe it give the player standing away from the approach, a better sense of the scope of the green side Bs and steepness to the putting surface.  But, I just think on a technical level, those are cut and flashed a little much for a true L&M intent.

Just a fine job Phil...  ;) ;D 8)

RJ -- Thanks -- I'm only riffing on the fine photos that you and Dan have provided. ;)

I, too, in looking at these pictures this morning, noticed the somewhat more flashed look of the West Bend bunkers relative to the Lawsonia bunkers. It's interesting to note just how flat those Lawsonia bunkers surfaces are -- perhaps Langford (and Moreau, it should be added!) wanted to compensate for the fairly penal nature of those big bunkers by assuring the golfer a level lie if he has the misfortune of landing in one. ;D



Restoring those bunker faces (and the footprint of the sand) on 8 and 9 is on our short list. When our members were informed of our intention to add sand on #3 they asked why don't we fix the bunkers we already have. An opportunity to show them what a L&M bunker should look like.


Mike McGuire

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Re: Langford restoration - help needed
« Reply #39 on: September 21, 2009, 05:53:47 PM »
Phil

WBCC is located right next to Big Cedar Lake. Here is the last sentence from the link you provided

Big Cedar Lake and Elkhart Lake occupy preglacial valleys between morainic ridges. These valleys were probably occupied by ice blocks and escaped being filled by glacial drift.

Big Cedar has a depth on over 100 ft, our property has a lot of movement including  a 100 ft high kame in the middle and lots of kettles everywhere.

Getting the width back in the fairways and firming them up equals a fun place to play. 

TEPaul

Re: Langford restoration - help needed
« Reply #40 on: September 21, 2009, 07:31:11 PM »
"Our club has received a restoration plan for our Langford nine - constructed in 1930. The plan calls for sand in the green side bunkers per the original drawings."


Mike:

Given the timing of the construction (1930) the fact that no sand was added (even if Langford called for it) sure isn't surprising.

On my course (a 1916 Ross) there are some depressions on only a single hole which most definitely are not natural grade but for some reason no sand was ever added to them even though it was to every single other bunker on the course. I have a feeling the way they were constructed in that particular area may've been a real drainage problem and perhaps even Ross figured grass was easier after a time they apparently decided to plant trees around them.

Whatever you decide to do I really can't see how you could go wrong other than to not realize that sand bunkers are sure going to be more expensive to maintain than what you have had for so long.

Phil McDade

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Re: Langford restoration - help needed
« Reply #41 on: September 21, 2009, 08:52:34 PM »
Phil

WBCC is located right next to Big Cedar Lake. Here is the last sentence from the link you provided

Big Cedar Lake and Elkhart Lake occupy preglacial valleys between morainic ridges. These valleys were probably occupied by ice blocks and escaped being filled by glacial drift.

Big Cedar has a depth on over 100 ft, our property has a lot of movement including  a 100 ft high kame in the middle and lots of kettles everywhere.

Getting the width back in the fairways and firming them up equals a fun place to play. 

I bet Big Cedar Lake is good fishin'. (Interesting that Lawsonia sits next to one of the deepest inland lakes in Wisconsin.)

In looking at aerials of West Bend, that kame that sort of separates the two nines is really cool.

Sean_A

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Re: Langford restoration - help needed
« Reply #42 on: September 22, 2009, 03:27:22 AM »
Not to throw a spanner in the works, but it seems to me that it would be prudent for the archie to determine where best sand makes sense from a visual, playing, strategic and maintenance perspective.  Blanket statements of yes or no to me doesn't make sense.  I also think it will make a huge difference what type of sand is used.  Any sand which compacts will make any of these bunkers shots VERY difficult for the rank and file golfer and if there are too many of these pits it can get old very quickly.  I watched a few guys at Yeamans (which is very similar in design to these Langford green sites) of a good standard struggle all day with the compacted sand bunkers.

Ciao

 
New plays planned for 2024:Winterfield & Alnmouth,

Phil McDade

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Re: Langford restoration - help needed
« Reply #43 on: September 22, 2009, 01:14:11 PM »
Not to throw a spanner in the works, but it seems to me that it would be prudent for the archie to determine where best sand makes sense from a visual, playing, strategic and maintenance perspective.  Blanket statements of yes or no to me doesn't make sense.  I also think it will make a huge difference what type of sand is used.  Any sand which compacts will make any of these bunkers shots VERY difficult for the rank and file golfer and if there are too many of these pits it can get old very quickly.  I watched a few guys at Yeamans (which is very similar in design to these Langford green sites) of a good standard struggle all day with the compacted sand bunkers.

Ciao

 

Sean:

Re. sand quality -- is it your contention that bunker sand that is compacted (which I take to mean "firm") would be more difficult to hit out of in these types of bunkers -- high lips, and deep relative to the playing surface -- than soft (or softer) sand?

I would think just the opposite -- I always find softer sand harder to negotiate than firm sand, presuming its not so compacted as to be hitting off something resembling a compacted sand path. Particularly in coming out of these deep, high-lipped bunkers, I'd think it easier to do so with firmer sand.

But I may be missing something in your comments; interested in your thoughts on this.


Sean_A

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Re: Langford restoration - help needed
« Reply #44 on: September 22, 2009, 04:34:49 PM »
Not to throw a spanner in the works, but it seems to me that it would be prudent for the archie to determine where best sand makes sense from a visual, playing, strategic and maintenance perspective.  Blanket statements of yes or no to me doesn't make sense.  I also think it will make a huge difference what type of sand is used.  Any sand which compacts will make any of these bunkers shots VERY difficult for the rank and file golfer and if there are too many of these pits it can get old very quickly.  I watched a few guys at Yeamans (which is very similar in design to these Langford green sites) of a good standard struggle all day with the compacted sand bunkers.

Ciao

 

Sean:

Re. sand quality -- is it your contention that bunker sand that is compacted (which I take to mean "firm") would be more difficult to hit out of in these types of bunkers -- high lips, and deep relative to the playing surface -- than soft (or softer) sand?

I would think just the opposite -- I always find softer sand harder to negotiate than firm sand, presuming its not so compacted as to be hitting off something resembling a compacted sand path. Particularly in coming out of these deep, high-lipped bunkers, I'd think it easier to do so with firmer sand.

But I may be missing something in your comments; interested in your thoughts on this.



Phil

I don't have a lot of experience with really firm sand.  Two of the places were Tobacco Road and Kiawah - waste area courses.  The third recent one was Yeamans - the sand wasn't as compacted as the others, but it was very firm and the club bounced off it a bit if one didn't bite in just right.  I would think with firm sand hitting over 6,8 or 10 foot sod/grass face walls to sloping greens is a recipe for a lot of kisses on the card (the X type!).  The ball tends to come out hot and low which is fine for longer shots but oh so difficult for short, control shots.  I watched average to good golfers hack it around the sand on all these courses.  Of course, I think for the very good players they like it compacted, but not so much where the flange bounces.  I am not trying to make a big deal of this, only pointing out that often times, the steep bank serves as enough penalty for the vast majority of golfers. 

I would like some others to chime in concerning sand firmness, perhaps I a completely off base.  I am only going by what I have seen. 

Ciao

New plays planned for 2024:Winterfield & Alnmouth,

Brad Klein

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Re: Langford restoration - help needed
« Reply #45 on: September 23, 2009, 06:20:20 AM »
This is fascinating discussion, and I suspect Kye Goalby's account of Langford bunkers is pretty accurate. But in all of this, as with so much restoration, what I hear is the voice of various purists claiming some authentic soul and authentic identity. The problem I continually encounter -- at too many good clubs which could be still greater -- is that architecture is an esoteric province, a niche, and that too many everyday golfers don't get it, don't care about it and don't have the vision to see what's possible.

I'm not faulting them per se (though I certainly think they are missing something important). But the task for restorationists is to make a case, win the political day, persuade at least a sensible if otherwise silent majority of the need and then to proceed with their approval or tacit agreement. In the absence of that additional political effort, all of this architectural purism gets wasted or relegated to museums. Of course that would be a shame, but it's also what I fear unless people attend to the mobilization of the membership -- or are clever enough to create a committee to lead the fight. But that requires a lot more consideration and planning than I usually see. Most of us would rather be digging up Langford plans and implementing them than selling the basic concept to golfers who think they know what's right for their course.



BCrosby

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Re: Langford restoration - help needed
« Reply #46 on: September 23, 2009, 08:46:32 AM »
Brad

Exactly. Restoration is as much a club/political event as it is an architectural event. If you are an active participant at GCA, you - almost by definition - will not fully appreciate the former. That's because you will not fully appreciate how little interest most golfers have in architectural issues. Especially historical  architectural issues.

In the two cases I am intimately familiar with, you have to make the case that a restoration should be done not for historical reasons. People could care less about that. You have to make the case that a restoration will give them a better golf course. Full stop.

Bob

 

Dan Moore

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Re: Langford restoration - help needed
« Reply #47 on: September 23, 2009, 09:27:33 AM »
Sounds like Mike is in the middle of the political process Brad describes and at this point may need to refocus on the strategy of how to sell it to the membership.  I wonder if the archie has presented the restoration concept to the memebrship. 

I need to dig Langford's 1914 treatise on Golf Course Architecture out of my files as I seem to recall.  I believe he addressed the concept of an effective hazard in a good bit of detail.  I think it will add to the discussion to see what Langford had to say about the question. 

Those of us who have seen all 18 holes at West Bend know they face bigger challenges in the their quest to improve the course than just sand in Langford bunkers.  Mike has not even broached the question of how to aesthetically integrate their two nines that were built 30 years apart in very different styles.  The land they have is first rate and is beautifully used on the Langford nine.  The land on the back is equally good if even a little more rambunctous than the front.  However several holes on the back (the 10th and 15th stand out in my mind) do not take full advantage of the possibilities.  Add to that a completely different green forms and bunker style and there is an aesthetic clash that works unconsciously on the golfers perception of the course. 

Bob Crosby hits it on the head by noting the task at hand is to sell the changes as provided a better golf course and golf experience.  I can't say I have any brilliant ideas on how to do that, but there is no question in my mind that restoring the Langford look by adding sand to the bunkers around the greens on the front nine would be a huge aesthetic improvement. 

The spectacular 3rd green at West Bend is one of Langford's very best and one of the best greens I have seen on any course.  As seen in Phil's photo, which fails to capture the size of the green or the big roll that seperates the front from the back portion of this reverse two tier green, the green to my eye just screams to be have its look balanced and complemented with sand added to the depressions left and right of the very large green.  As this is an approach to a very large green on a par 5 anyone who misses with their third shot should be penalized.  For short greenside recovery shots the banks are not so steep as to make it impossible to recover from them. 

Most of us who have seen a fair amount of Langford's work agree the combination of topography and bold design features on the Langford nine at WBCC represents some of the very best work Langford has left for us.  Restoring this vision throughout the Langford nine would greatly improve the look and playability of the course.  A lot of tree removal has already been done and fairway widths have and will be expanded adding more variety and strategy and offsetting some of the penal effects of adding sand.  Extending the Langford look and improving a couple of weak areas on the back nine would in my opinion elevate WBCC to among the top five courses in the greater Milwaukee area.  Let's hope Mike and the club can prevail in their efforts as in the end they will have a more interesting and greatly improved course. 

"Is there any other game which produces in the human mind such enviable insanity."  Bernard Darwin

Sean_A

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Re: Langford restoration - help needed
« Reply #48 on: September 23, 2009, 09:37:42 AM »
Sounds like Mike is in the middle of the political process Brad describes and at this point may need to refocus on the strategy of how to sell it to the membership.  I wonder if the archie has presented the restoration concept to the memebrship. 

I need to dig Langford's 1914 treatise on Golf Course Architecture out of my files as I seem to recall.  I believe he addressed the concept of an effective hazard in a good bit of detail.  I think it will add to the discussion to see what Langford had to say about the question. 

Those of us who have seen all 18 holes at West Bend know they face bigger challenges in the their quest to improve the course than just sand in Langford bunkers.  Mike has not even broached the question of how to aesthetically integrate their two nines that were built 30 years apart in very different styles.  The land they have is first rate and is beautifully used on the Langford nine.  The land on the back is equally good if even a little more rambunctous than the front.  However several holes on the back (the 10th and 15th stand out in my mind) do not take full advantage of the possibilities.  Add to that a completely different green forms and bunker style and there is an aesthetic clash that works unconsciously on the golfers perception of the course. 

Bob Crosby hits it on the head by noting the task at hand is to sell the changes as provided a better golf course and golf experience.  I can't say I have any brilliant ideas on how to do that, but there is no question in my mind that restoring the Langford look by adding sand to the bunkers around the greens on the front nine would be a huge aesthetic improvement. 

The spectacular 3rd green at West Bend is one of Langford's very best and one of the best greens I have seen on any course.  As seen in Phil's photo, which fails to capture the size of the green or the big roll that seperates the front from the back portion of this reverse two tier green, the green to my eye just screams to be have its look balanced and complemented with sand added to the depressions left and right of the very large green.  As this is an approach to a very large green on a par 5 anyone who misses with their third shot should be penalized.  For short greenside recovery shots the banks are not so steep as to make it impossible to recover from them. 

Most of us who have seen a fair amount of Langford's work agree the combination of topography and bold design features on the Langford nine at WBCC represents some of the very best work Langford has left for us.  Restoring this vision throughout the Langford nine would greatly improve the look and playability of the course.  A lot of tree removal has already been done and fairway widths have and will be expanded adding more variety and strategy and offsetting some of the penal effects of adding sand.  Extending the Langford look and improving a couple of weak areas on the back nine would in my opinion elevate WBCC to among the top five courses in the greater Milwaukee area.  Let's hope Mike and the club can prevail in their efforts as in the end they will have a more interesting and greatly improved course. 



Dan

There is great enthusiasm, but I a not sure of the angle you present.  How does "restoring the vision" improve the playability of the course?

Ciao

Sean
New plays planned for 2024:Winterfield & Alnmouth,

Dan Moore

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Re: Langford restoration - help needed
« Reply #49 on: September 23, 2009, 10:06:12 AM »
Playability is about much more than ball on club in my view.  It also has a deep subconscious element where an aesthetically pleasing design works to enhance the overall experience.  I believe the clashing aesthetics of the two nines at WBCC country club detract from the overall "playability" of the course.  Also the absence of bunkers on #3, a huge green approached with a short club, the "playability" of that shot is enhanced by the psychological hazard presented by the sand as opposed to grass bunkers.  This would be in addition to improved visual appeal of the sand contrasting with the banks of the green.  Sand may present a more difficult shot for some but I see playability as a more complex subject than the mere physics of the shot at hand. 
"Is there any other game which produces in the human mind such enviable insanity."  Bernard Darwin

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