Where do Doak's courses rate on the Doak scale?

[David Kelly]

Apache is some of the best architecture in modern golf.  Naysayers who insist they will only reassess their views when its at Augusta conditions should be ignored.  The land forms, flow, routing and theme persist even before the place was grassed.  AP should be a required study in modern gca.

Jonathan:

     I thought I was the only one who felt this way. Thanks for confirming what I have thought from the time I hit my  approach to the first green at Apache Stronghold.

             Gene

I have always thought that as well and it might still be my favorite Doak design even after playing 12 of his originals and numerous restorations.

[David_Elvins]

David Kelly,

Would you rate St Andrews Beach has harshly as JC?

[Jonathan Cummings]

David - harsh?  Remember that a Doak 4 is a pretty damn good score (probably equivalent to something like the top 5-10% of the world's courses).  JC

[Peter Ferlicca]

JC,

You must not be a good driver of the golf ball, because on almost every hole at Stone Eagle if you put it in the right area of the fairway you will be rewarded with a good lie.  Now if you are spraying it all over the place in the WIDE fairways you will be penalized with a real akward lie.  I will say it once again I have played this course more than anyone and you could have days where you have 10/14 lies fairly level, and then days where 0/14 lies in the fairway are level.

The site is very severe I will agree with you on that, and for a golf course to be built there was a very hard project, but like Matt Ward said it is a very fun golf course that provides good holes.  That is an accomplishment in itself, considering that almost 90% of the designers out there probably would have built a horrific golf course on this site.

Now with walking, I walk the course all the time, for the average person it probably isn't walkable.  I have made up my own golf course that is a par 69, 6,200 yards.  It is very walkable, and would compare to any course in San Diego for walking up and down hills.  You do have to take a cart to the top of the hill and park it, and then you can walk.

And for the babbling brook that was OBVIOUSLY the developer who wanted that to make it a pretty ride up to the top.

Peter

[Jay Cox]

Remember that a Doak 4 is a pretty damn good score (probably equivalent to something like the top 5-10% of the world's courses).  JC

Isn't a 4 one step above average - hence, something like top 40%, not top 5-10%?  I imagined that a 6 was something like top 10%.

I haven't been within several thousand miles of St. Andrews Beach, but from the pictures it would have to be designed to require a series of 100-yard layups followed by 250-yard approaches to deserve a 4 in my book.

[Matt_Ward]

Jonathan:

Good stuff ...

Can you tell me a hilly site (doesn't have to be a Doak but be a modern layout -- post 1960 -- that you would rate very highly?

Please tell me in regards to Stone Eagle what specific shots / holes you believe to be off kilter because of the existing terrain?

I do believe hearty souls can walk the property but likely only the daring sherbas would do it.

You say the course is only "good" (which equates to what Doak rating number?) and that Tom and his team should have walked away from the course. I can't agree about the second part -- land sites today can be in demanding spots but given the obstacles I think Doak and team did an outstanding job -- is it a part of my top 100 USA? Tough question. But, I'll say this -- there's plenty of fun holes there and it does a solid job in marrying power and accuracy with solid green contours throughout the round.

The drive from the clubhouse up Mt Olympus, along that wonderful "natural" babbling brook prepares you for a round on a highly sloped rocky skree.  Maybe very good but short of great.

Thanks for the clarification in regards to Rock Creek. I too love the course -- my minor objection to the drop shot par-3 on the back and the closing hole are only two small matters and don't really impact the sheer totality of what's there. In regards to the course is there a hole or holes that keep you from giving it a 10?

Jonathan, like the idea you have on AS -- I wish that could be done. My take on the place is that until conditioning allows the inherent design features to really surface then all the wishes and dreams are simply that -- wishes and dreams. I don't play golf conceptually -- I play it actually and I am far from advocating ANGC turf conditions there -- however -- I do expect to play off something that feels and looks like grass -- not bare or dirt lies with uneven tees and greens that often times require a full shoulder turn for ten-footers. If matters have indeed changed then AS clearly has the potential to be all it can be.

[David Kelly]

David Kelly,

Would you rate St Andrews Beach has harshly as JC?

I don't really think in terms of Doak scores but I am sure that I liked it a lot more than Jonathan.  It wasn't crazy good like Barnbougle but then again the land was far less dramatic.  I particularly liked the large aprons surrounding the massive greens, it was something I hadn't seen them do a lot of before.

[Jonathan Cummings]

Matt - I rate Raven Course at Snowshoe - a Player course done by Tom Walker a hilly Mtn course that is top 100.  World class par 5s (a study in attack options), US-class par 4's (well varied in length, thrill, anticipation and surprise), okay par 3s.

Not many equal...

JC