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Ran Morrissett

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The merits of Prairie Dunes vs. Open Rota Courses
« on: April 26, 2002, 10:46:33 AM »
As Tom Doak notes, though a prairie shouldn't be confused for links land, there is a great temptation to compare Prairie Dunes to the famous UK links - they both feature wind, humpy-bumpy fairways, similarly nasty rough, firm playing conditions, etc.

So.....how would you compare/contrast the merits of Prairie Dunes to the courses on the Open rota (I pick the rota courses for ease of comparison)?

My take would be:

1. It is one of the few courses in the world that has greens as vexing as those at St. Andrews. Plus many of its fairways enjoy the same continual rolls as the ones found at St. Andrews.

2. It is less heavily bunkered than Muirfield, in part because it enjoys significantly better topography. For instance, a hole like the 8th at MuirFIELD needs all those bunkers in the crook of the dogleg whereas the 8th at Prairie Dunes does not.

3. It isn't nearly as long as Carnoustie but conversely, Carnoustie can't begin to match it for short game interest. Plus, like Bethpage Black, as part of its tough guy image, Carnoustie doesn't really challenge the golfer to hit some crisp short iron shots, like those at the 14th or 17th holes at PD.

4. It doesn't have the romantic setting of Turnberry but conversely PD's weaker holes demolish those at Turnberry as each hole at PD is loaded with architectural interest. Plus, who would argue that PD's finest holes aren't the equal of the coastline holes at Turnberry?

5. The uneven stances than one finds at PD adds heaps to its overall challenge and interest and the continual fiddling with one's stance/set-up is the very thing that Royal Birkdale lacks.

6. PD goes a great job of continually getting the golfer to the highest points around the property (e.g. 3 tee, 5 tee, 6 tee, 9 tee, 12 tee, 18 tee) where he is exposed to the full effect of the wind. These high points are unsettling to the man who has started to lose his swing and the flatter Troon doesn't enjoy a similar opportunity to expose such frayed nerves.

7. While there are a few views of homes (and a couple of poorly placed cart paths) at PD, the overall sense is one of escapism and at being at one with nature, which is about the only thing that Royal Lytham & St. Annes lacks.

8. Royal St. George's is one of my all-time favorites too but all its one shotters have been drastically altered with time. While  they remain a good set, they don't begin to compare against the excellent set at PD.

The purpose of the post isn't to nit-pick the few weak aspects of the Open courses but rather to highlight the abundant merits of PD relative to other world class courses.

The Women's Open in the first week of July should make for great, great viewing, especially if a breeze is about.

Cheers,

PS I hope to have a PD course profile posted with perhaps as many as 25 pictures by Tuesday evening.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Jeff_Lewis

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Re: The merits of Prairie Dunes vs. Open Rota Cour
« Reply #1 on: April 26, 2002, 11:31:04 AM »
Ran,

Agree with many of your points re:UK and PD. But isn't the better comparison to US courses that are supposed to be evocative of links golf? How about letting PD go head to head vs. NGLA, Shinnecock, Whistling Straits, Bandon Dunes, Sand Hills? PD may not win any of these matches, but will put up one heck of a good fight...
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Scott_Burroughs

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Re: The merits of Prairie Dunes vs. Open Rota Cour
« Reply #2 on: April 26, 2002, 11:35:22 AM »
Jeff,

I bet PD would win at least two of those matches.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Matt_Cohn

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Re: The merits of Prairie Dunes vs. Open Rota Cour
« Reply #3 on: April 26, 2002, 01:53:42 PM »
I'm happy to say, I'm leaving tomorrow for Prairie Dunes!

Our Big 12 (formerly 8) tournament has been there for quite a few years, and this is my third year in a row going. It's an amazing place, especially given the weather possibilities in April in Hutchinson, Kansas.

I've played the course 8 times before, and I'll play it 4 more times this week. The tournament will start rotating next year, so this might be my last trip to P.D. The 2003 event is at Southern Hills.

The GCA profile should be interesting, and I'll try to post some comments on Prairie Dunes when I get back.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Scott_Burroughs

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Re: The merits of Prairie Dunes vs. Open Rota Cour
« Reply #4 on: April 26, 2002, 02:02:21 PM »
One weather possibility is a tornado.  Spring in the midwest plains.  Have you cracked the starting lineup yet, Matt?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Scott_Burroughs

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Re: The merits of Prairie Dunes vs. Open Rota Cour
« Reply #5 on: April 26, 2002, 02:08:28 PM »
Off topic, but looky what I found:

http://soonersports.fansonly.com/sports/m-golf/recaps/032502aaa.html


http://soonersports.fansonly.com/sports/m-golf/mtt/cohn_matt00.html





You're not the biggest guy in the world, Matt.  Another Willie Wood/Corey Pavin/Jeff Sluman/Paul Runyan/Gary Player?   :)

Sorry for the exposure, Matt.  I'm just jealous of your golf game.   :)
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:04 PM by -1 »

brad_miller

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Re: The merits of Prairie Dunes vs. Open Rota Cour
« Reply #6 on: April 26, 2002, 04:33:07 PM »
Ran, Jeff's point is well taken, but how does it compare with Crystal Downs? Maybe the first of many matches. I suspect PD wins over PacD, WS, and BD, Shinny, and SH might be another story, and we all know what you think of NGLA!
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Patrick_Mucci

Re: The merits of Prairie Dunes vs. Open Rota Cour
« Reply #7 on: April 26, 2002, 05:24:54 PM »
Ran,

If PD was located closer to a large city, I think it would receive far more acclaim.  It is a unique site and golf course,
I only wish it was more accessable.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Ran Morrissett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Two of the country's very best
« Reply #8 on: April 26, 2002, 05:53:12 PM »
Crystal Downs and Prairie Dunes?

That's a tough one and I hope someone like Mike DeVries, J. McMillan, or T. Doak will see this thread who is more familiar with Crystal Downs.

In general, the courses are similar as they are tough par 70 courses that measure within 100 yards in length of each other. The wind is ever present, both have great topo, and possess a wicked set of greens.

While neither course has a weakness, the strength of Crystal Downs is probably its sub-400 yarders and the strength of Prairie is probably its one shotters.

The two par fives at Crystal Downs measure a good 140 yards longer than the two at Prairie Dunes and essentially offer no chance at an eagle.

A match play would be brutally close with the front nine of each its better side:

1. Crystal Downs 1 up- its awesome view breaks the tie as to how they play.
2. all square
3. all square
4. PD 1 up
5. all square
6. PD 1 up, though some might argue
7. all square
8. clash of two of the very best mid-country holes - halve
9. all square
10. PD 1 up
11. PD 2 up
12. PD 2 up
13. PD 1 up
14. PD 1 up (some might argue but I think PD's green earns it the tie)
15. all square
16. PD 1 up
17. PD 1 up
18. PD 1 up

That's as tight as it gets!

Two other factors might also give PD an edge and they are:

1) PD is a far easier walking course as the walk from 11 green to 12 tee at CD doesn't exactly qualify as a graceful transition (and 8 tee to 9 green to 10 green is no picnic) and;

 2) I was impressed by how readily we found our balls in the thick stuff at PD. Conversely, once at CD, three of us hit the 4th fairway and lost all three balls in the left rough. Maybe that was a one off but the meadowy rough at CD can get so dense as to impede the continuity of the round with ball hunting.

One thing on Crystal's behalf: without having first worked that project with MacKenzie, Perry Maxwell wouldn't have hit the home run that he later did with his 9 greens at PD in 1937.

Cheers,

PS I agree PD wears down all the modern courses listed above save for Sand Hills. Though Dye is the master at moving earth, his construction technique loses out to the fresno scapers that helped create and preserve the humpy bumpy fairways at PD. Even PacDunes with its very good - but not world class - interior green contours can't keep pace with the famous Maxwell rolls.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Ran Morrissett

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Re: The merits of Prairie Dunes vs. Open Rota Cour
« Reply #9 on: April 26, 2002, 06:12:12 PM »
Pat, For no good reason, I was reminded of the expanse of the Hempstead plain as we were wandering through the prairie on the back nine at PD. I don't know why I made the connection but it sure is nice to find oneself in a predominately treeless environment.

As C.B. Macdonald noted, no course can be considered ideal with trees that are ever present and I have no doubt that he would have considered both Garden City and Prairie Dunes as 'ideal'.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Patrick_Mucci

Re: The merits of Prairie Dunes vs. Open Rota Cour
« Reply #10 on: April 26, 2002, 07:07:43 PM »
Ran,

He also LOVED the WIND, and I suspect a treeless environment would allow one to feel its full effect.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

brad_miller

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Re: The merits of Prairie Dunes vs. Open Rota Cour
« Reply #11 on: April 27, 2002, 04:41:05 AM »
Pat, I found PD much easier to get to than expected, truly only 45-50 DTD from Wichita airport, which has a reasonable # of nonstops from many locations. I went LGA-St L- Wichita, left at 6am arrived at club at 11.30am.

Noticed in many of the feature interviews section how few have played and/or seen this course, how about GCA in general?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

brad_miller

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Re: The merits of Prairie Dunes vs. Open Rota Cour
« Reply #12 on: April 27, 2002, 07:40:43 AM »
Jeff, yes they still use it, but whats it worth with the wind and firm ground? Half the fun was creating shots given the ever changing conditions.  :)
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

ChrisB (Guest)

Re: The merits of Prairie Dunes vs. Open Rota Cour
« Reply #13 on: April 27, 2002, 10:00:19 AM »
I think that the way the 2nd nine holes were incorporated into the layout some 20 years later is the ideal way to do it--new holes were "injected" into the middle of the routing, so that both nines on the finished course start and end with original holes (1-2, 6-9; 10, 17-18), with the newer holes in the middle (3-5; 11-16).  I'm not sure whether this strategy was by design or was instead dictated by the property, but it certainly helps with continuity.  If the original nine had been kept as 1-9 and a new 10-18 were built, I don't know what the result would have been but I'm sure it wouldn't be nearly as good as what sits there today.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Ran Morrissett

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Re: The merits of Prairie Dunes vs. Open Rota Cour
« Reply #14 on: April 27, 2002, 10:38:33 AM »
Chris, That's an excellent point, which brings me to my question: does (or did) a drawing of Perry Maxwell's original 18 hole routing exist? If so, did Press closely follow it or did he create some new holes that his Dad never had?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

George Pazin

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Re: The merits of Prairie Dunes vs. Open Rota Cour
« Reply #15 on: April 27, 2002, 02:38:04 PM »
Ran -

I think a book on Prairie Dunes is due out sometime this year. Maybe it will answer some of your questions.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

brad_miller

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The merits of Prairie Dunes vs. Open Rota Cour
« Reply #16 on: April 27, 2002, 03:35:11 PM »
read the links magazine classics of golf story on PD (1994), seems to be Perry's routing "maybe refined" (my words) by Press. If this were not the case the additional 9 would be one of golf archie's truly outstanding achievements given how the course now flows. The additional tees up top of certain dunes by a prior superintendent really brings the wind even more into play. Tom Paul, I think their sup, Stan George is onto your concept of "maintance Meld!!"
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Patrick_Mucci

Re: The merits of Prairie Dunes vs. Open Rota Cour
« Reply #17 on: April 27, 2002, 04:10:36 PM »
Ran, et. al.,

Prairie Dunes put out a book in 1987, "Prairie Dunes, The First Fifty Years".

I happen to be lucky enough to have a copy, which I believe was given to all contestants in the USGA Mid-Am.  The book combines social, historical, and architectual information, perhaps the next book will be a continuum of the first.

Perhaps the club still has copies available for interested parties.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

TEPaul

Re: The merits of Prairie Dunes vs. Open Rota Cour
« Reply #18 on: April 27, 2002, 04:42:59 PM »
This is a very interesting thread particularly about the tie in of the additional nine 20 years later. I wish I knew something about PD, because I love everything I know about P. Maxwell so far.

I can't really visualize how the additional nine was "injected" into the orginal nine or are you just talking about an alteration in the progression of the holes once the entire 18 was completed? Could you explain that a bit more? What does the routing look like in an aerial in the context of the holes that were built 20 later? Are the newer holes outside the original holes, away from them as a lot or do the newer holes actually weave through the original holes somehow?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

brad_miller

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The merits of Prairie Dunes vs. Open Rota Cour
« Reply #19 on: April 27, 2002, 05:44:20 PM »
Tom, seems like it was route 18 in 1935-37 and  build only 9. The oringinal holes created their own great 9 holer, one was never far from the club house, these holes today's #'s 1,2,6,7,8,9,10,17 and 18, are in my opinion the core of the best holes on the course, Press's best IMO are 3, 4,5,11,13 and 14 and 16.

The second nine built includes holes both within the original nine and another section of the property. Within include 3, 4, and 5 (sort of), after 10 the routing moves to an unused section of the original property for holes 11-16.

www.prairiedunes.com    look at the course info and routing, Ran will have much better pictures with his profile next week,  Scott B might also be able to put back up the old ariel from a few months back.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

brad_miller

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Re: The merits of Prairie Dunes vs. Open Rota Cour
« Reply #20 on: April 27, 2002, 06:06:17 PM »
Cornish's book "The Golf Course" has a couple of old B&W's, one which shows the path from todays 2 to 6th. There is also a color picture of the first hole green complex, which looks nothing like it does today, was there a Jones that did some work there in the 60's or 70's? :) Thankfully Mr. Coore or someone else got it back to its more traditional look.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Tom Doak

Re: The merits of Prairie Dunes vs. Open Rota Cour
« Reply #21 on: April 27, 2002, 06:38:56 PM »
I am a big fan of Prairie Dunes, but I think Crystal Downs is a clear choice above it.  In fact, one of the reasons I always thought so highly of the Downs is that it matched up so formidably against Prairie Dunes.

I have no stomach for hole-by-hole matches anymore, but which course has better par-5 holes?  (NO contest.)  Which has better long par-4's?  Which has better short par-4's?

Prairie Dunes competes only with its excellent par-3 quartet.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Tom MacWood (Guest)

Re: The merits of Prairie Dunes vs. Open Rota Cour
« Reply #22 on: April 28, 2002, 09:10:28 PM »
I'm looking foward to the Women's Open as much as the Men's. Crystal Downs and Prarie Dunes are almost sister courses. Crystal Downs has the edge because of variety of terrain and variety in the character of the nines, but Prarie Dunes is not far behind.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

ChrisB (Guest)

Re: The merits of Prairie Dunes vs. Open Rota Cour
« Reply #23 on: April 30, 2002, 05:40:27 PM »
Well, the wind must not have blown too hard today for the final round of the Big 12 Championship--there were two 65's posted. :)
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Matt_Cohn

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Re: The merits of Prairie Dunes vs. Open Rota Cour
« Reply #24 on: May 01, 2002, 02:49:08 PM »
Too many places to post information! I wrote quite a bit and the end of the PD course review, and a little more on the other PD discussion thread.

Obviously Tuesday could have been a little better as far as OU Golf was concerned. I think I'll leave it at that!
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »