[Robert Mercer Deruntz]

This is the 6th on the Red.  The hole is a 360 yard 75 degree dogleg left.   This hole is drivable, but high scores are possible for a miscue.  The tee shot offers 3 options--a 3 or 4 iron to a wide flat area leaving about 130 yards, a 2 iron or rescue over a small ridge to a tighter fairway area that leaves around a 100 yards and better angle for the right hand pin positions, a 3 wood around the corner for an L wedge.  The green has some slope and the flat areas are very difficult to access.

[Phil_the_Author]

Robert,

I always found 2,3 & 6 on the Red to be run-of-the-mill pedestrian type holes. They fit the land yet offer only minimal challenges for the average golfer no less the skilled. I admit that is simply my opinion. For me, the two most esciting short par-4s (I can't pick between them) at Bethpage are #4 & 12 on the Green. That goes back to my early days playing it in the mid-60s, but even then it was fun trying to hit a badly used Kro-flite with my Pederson persimon driver as hard as I could to see how close to those greens I could get it.

Of course usually the rough was fgound and bogey was the minimum scored, but what the heck... Hitting a driver as hard as one could back then was FUN!!!!!!!!!!

[Jaeger Kovich]

Robert - That hole definitely isn't drivable!... There is no shot to the green, it is hidden behind trees unless you can hit a 50yrd draw! and even then you say its 360 which is a HUGE drive.

I think its a decent hole, but not one I would call a favorite. I haven't played the green,but I haven't found a great short 4 on red or blue and there is no short hole on black!

[Kyle Harris]

It's 270 from tee to green as the crow flies. It's drivable.

The hole is a mental cluster... good luck trying to find the right club to hit from the tee for the lay up AND the correct line. Robert's right, this is a great hole.

[Phil_the_Author]

Kyle & Robert,

This is already a strange thread with me trying to convince others that a hole designed by tilly at Bethpage simply isn't "GREAT." I don't think that it should be viewed as even very good and that fairly good is all it deserves. There is simply no realistic reason to attempt to drive the hole. I question Kyle's distance as it simply seems far too short. I'd have to see it measured to believe it.

Secondly, even if it were truly 270 "as the crow flies" remember, he is flying directly over a forest followed by rough and bunker to get there. No intelligent player would use that line as the risk vs. reward is definitely not worth it. A decent play out to the right side of the fairway leaves a simple short iron in to a green that is unprotected.

Sorry guys... "Great" this hole ain't!

[Kyle Harris]

Kyle & Robert,

This is already a strange thread with me trying to convince others that a hole designed by tilly at Bethpage simply isn't "GREAT." I don't think that it should be viewed as even very good and that fairly good is all it deserves. There is simply no realistic reason to attempt to drive the hole. I question Kyle's distance as it simply seems far too short. I'd have to see it measured to believe it.

Secondly, even if it were truly 270 "as the crow flies" remember, he is flying directly over a forest followed by rough and bunker to get there. No intelligent player would use that line as the risk vs. reward is definitely not worth it. A decent play out to the right side of the fairway leaves a simple short iron in to a green that is unprotected.

Sorry guys... "Great" this hole ain't!

Phil,

I measured from the front of the back tee to the center of the green on Google Earth.

Not sure how much you ever actually try to score when you play, and by score I mean make 3. But this hole is certainly VERY resistant to those trying to make 3 or 4. The approach and tee shot are both confounded by a lack of clearly defined aiming points or even reference points, the angle from the right side of the fairway to the green is both awkward and difficult to most any pin on the green and misisng the green is no bargain either.

[Phil_the_Author]

Kyle,

I've played it over 100 times... It is simply nothing more than an ordinarily good hole. Again, no one with any sense in their head is trying to drive that hole as 9 times out of ten at best they won't do it. That means they will end up in the tress at least 5 times and in either very heavy rough or a bunker the other 4.

A great drivable par-4 should have a reasonable to good chance of accomplishing it. Think of the 10th at riviera as the perfect example or the 10th at Westchester. Standing on the tee with a driver in your hand you EXPOECT to do it... that isn't the case here.

[Kyle Harris]

Phil,

I don't think anyone here is saying that it's a great drivable hole, we're saying it's a great short hole that is drivable.

What sort of shots must the golfer make to score a 3 or 4?

[Robert Mercer Deruntz]

Phil,
   You are judging this hole on the merits of your own game.  I have been fortunate to have played over 60 competitive rounds on the Red.  Over the years, the player sentiment is that this is an awesome hole because everyone expects to make birdie and very few are ever scored.  One of the features of a great short hole is teeing options--this hole has them because the player stands on the tee thinking birdie, but knows that the second shot will have to be very precise.  Quite a few of the longer players do hit driver and I am pretty certain that Merv Smith got robbed of a hole in one back in 1996--I saw the ball pop out of the hole as I stood on the 7th tee waiting for the hole to clear.  When the pin is on the right, I think that the sensible play is  a driver for the player who has 280 carry distance.  As the first picture shows, there is ample room before hoisting the driver over the trees.

[Phil_the_Author]

Robert,

I played in a couple of Long Island Opens myself on it. I always found it an easy par and one that I'd birdie every 4th time or so. My view of it isn't based upon how I play it. I might simply say that about your viewpoint and it also wouldn't be true.

The hole was designed to be played as a medium length par-4 where the turning point in the fairway would provide an angular challenge at the tee. With a lower carry angle many balls would go through the fairway into rough. For those who guarded against this they faced the opposite problem with hooking it into rough as well.

Before the 1980s this was a shot-makers golf hole. A well-struck draw would be rewarded where any other play would be penalized. Today this is gone from the hole as can be seen from what you say about the number of players who attempt to drive it. The problem with this play isn't one of carry over the trees from the tee, but rather where it LANDS. The ONLY possible good option is the green and few shots will find this. That is why it is both a foolish play and shows the hole isn't truly drivable as Kyle maintains.

Still, this discussion really began with your maintaining that this is the best short par-4 at Bethpage. I disagreed with that assumption as well and have yet to hear any thoughts on the two holes i think are much better ones, the 4th & 12th on the Green. I'd love to see how you compare the three in your opinion...

[astavrides]

I don't think it is that tough a hole, but it is a good hole.  It's no more than 4 wd, wedge, but the second shot requires some precision, and the green is rather sloping.  It is also an interesting choice of what line to take off the tee and whether to try to shape a draw off the tee. 

[Kyle Harris]

Phil,

One of my definitions of greatest is that three different players can play a hole three different ways and all be correct. I think we're seeing that here.

4 and 12 on the Green are two great short holes, I know I've tried to drive 12 in the past and 4 has some neat angles to it. However, I think the 4th on the Green is a lot of bark with little actual bite. 12 has that really cool green so the approach shot is quite difficult.

Both holes are good, however, both holes don't really have the options of the 6th on the Red.

[Kyle Harris]

Some more images from last fall.

[Phil_the_Author]

It is nice to see in the photo that some putting suirface has been recovered and the back left bunker appears to have been restored. Get rid of the "chipping area," in my opinion of course, as that was never contemplated on a single hole at Bethpage! Still, both Robert & Kyle need some reward for driving it OVER the green !  

[Jaeger Kovich]

Phil... I completely agree with you.... If any good player ever tries to drive this green they are nuts.

It is amazing how much room there is to the right on this hole, its a slicers dream! All you have to do is hit it like 75-100 yards off the tee, and no matter how far right you hit it, you can see the green.

Meanwhile, any hook/draw that doesn't go at least 260, will end up in the trees. It is always fun watching people TRY to escape from those trees.

[Kyle Harris]

Jaeger,

Are you serious? Take a look at my last picture - that's where your proposed 75-100 yard shot would land.

Oh, and you would still be around 200 out.

Does all that Black stuff you guys smoke give you amnesia for the other four courses?

[Phil_the_Author]

The problem Kyle is that everything you smoke has made your eyes so bloodshot that you only see RED!

[Kyle Harris]

The problem Kyle is that everything you smoke has made your eyes so bloodshot that you only see RED!

That is one of the all-time classic rejoinders ever put forth on GCA.

I tip my hat to you sir...

...in the direction of the first tee of the Red Course.

[Jaeger Kovich]

Kyle - I love the Red course... my point about being able to hit a shank and still have only 200 to the green was a positive for the hole... just miss it right, and you have a chance to save par. Obviously most people hitting shanks off the tee cant hit a 200 yard draw on the next shot, but a pushed 3wood or hybrid leaves most players with a par chance.


Like is said before... I like the hole, but I dont think it is a GREAT hole. It just so happens to be the only short 4 on the course, and a solid one at that.

[Kyle Harris]

Hey Phil,

No love for the Yellow's 12th Hole? The only existing Reef Hole?

[Joe Bausch]

I think the best short hole at B'page is the "short" par 5 4th hole:

[Jaeger Kovich]

Kyle - Is there really a Reef hole on the yellow? We have one at Quaker Ridge, #13, but I've never seen another one. I love explaining the strategy of the Reef hole to our members.

[Kyle Harris]

Kyle - Is there really a Reef hole on the yellow? We have one at Quaker Ridge, #13, but I've never seen another one. I love explaining the strategy of the Reef hole to our members.

Phil can do a much better job of explaining the history, but yes, the 12th hole at the Yellow is a restored version of the Reef Hole.

By the way, the stretch on the Yellow from 10-14 is as good as anything in the park.

[Phil_the_Author]

Jaeger,

The 12th hole of the Yellow is the 5th hole of the original Blue course. It was among the very first holes worked on during the construction project. It is also the ONLY hole given a name at Bethpage. It can be found in the April 1935 edition of the Farmingdale Post where it is called "The famous REEF Hole." It is the ONLY Reef hole that we know of that Tilly specifically designed as a par-4. This is also important as the purpose of the "Reef" design is to provide a number of different playing options including the driving of the green from the tee. It measured 300 yards in 1935.

Bethpage has committed to restoring this hole and has done some work on it but has a long way to go before it is finished. The original design included an irrigation pond in the left rough about 150 yards out and the typical "Reef" aspects of a curving bunker/rough complex and mounding in the left rough short of the green that one could bounce a drive off. Those have yet to be reintroduced.

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