[TEPaul]

"Hope that was clear, but ask away about anything I just said..."


Sully:

That was incredibly clear. All those questions you asked a just excellent and I think they are all taken together pretty much the strategic sum and substance of the differences between the way the course played for the Walker Cup and the way it would have played had that deluge not come.

I guess I could tell you the way I think most of them may've played that hole had the rain not come but there may be an even better way of finding out the answers to your really good questions. That would be to just ask Buddy at some point because those players were all practicing on the course before the rains came. I didn't watch them practice the week of the Walker Cup, I only watched them practice over three weeks ago when the course was actually really soft and receptive.

But Wayne did watch them practice the week of the Walker Cup before the rains came when the course was ultra firm and fast and his comment was he thought he noticed that the eyes of most all the players were noticeably wider with the way it was playing.

And as you know there are few who know the nuances of Merion East as well as Buddy Marucci does and there is also no question at all that he was playing the part of one of the most interactive captains and coaches I have ever seen during the Walker Cup. He seemed to be almost everywhere at the same time, and he sure was talking to them constantly. Colin Dagleish, on the other hand, seemed to be a whole lot less interactive with the actual choices and strategies of his players than Marucci was.
 

[JESII]

I'd say it paid off.


But, Buddy is not on here, and you and I are...and we know the course well enough to have this discussion.

If you were caddying for one of those guys and the ground was as firm as early in the week, is there a reason to play #2 very conservativly while still being the best way to make a 4?

[TEPaul]

"For that level player, is it fair to give them 20 yards of roll on their tee shot if the ground had remained firm? It is a bit uphill at that point..."


Sully:

I didn't really notice if they were getting any rollout on their tee shots on #2 in the Walker cup itself; I only noticed where a number of them drove it on Saturday (they were shorter on Sunday because it was into about a 5-10mph wind). I can tell you that the four drives I saw on Saturday on #2 were all farther up there than any drive in the four rounds and practice rounds of the entire field of the 1981 US Open (and to make it even scarier they were teeing off from farther back than they were in the 1981 Open. In that Open I think only two players even tried to hit that green in two! On Saturday of the Walker Cup it seemed like any player who hit a decent drive in the fairway chose to go at it in two (the four players I saw with hybrids).

To answer your specific question I think they would've gotten even more than 20 yards of rollout before the rain came because even though those guys tend to hit their tee shots really high they were able to land their drives way up on top of that fairway at around 300 yards or more and the fact that up there is even higher than the tee probably would've promoted some additional rollout because the end of their trajectory on landing would've been a bit flatter, and so I would expect that most of those players could have come into that green with long irons or even something like a 5 iron (Long John Hurley hit a 3 iron to that green in the 2005 US Amateur). Could a mid to long iron have held that green if it landed on the green itself before the rain came? I'm not really sure but I tend to doubt it!  

On Saturday Harman landed his hybrid pretty far up into the green I think and stopped it! That would not have been remotely possible before the rain with the F&F they had.

On the other hand, Sully, I did see a lot of those players get into a lot of greenside rough on a number of holes and even though it sure looked long and gnarly to me most of them did seem to be able to recover well and some really well only if they had enough green to work with. For those players strategically to be able to recover well if they missed greens in rough or even in the sand did not seem to be so much the lies but more a matter of whether or not they had enough green to the pins to work with since those greens were at around 13+ and the rollout and ball creep was pretty substantial.

[Rich Goodale]

Tom

I may be stupid, but that's the first time I've heard the deliciously descriptive phrase "ball creep."  Copyright that and you'll soon be able to pay off the second mortgage on the back 40 at Featherfield Farm.

Rich

[TEPaul]

"If you were caddying for one of those guys and the ground was as firm as early in the week, is there a reason to play #2 very conservativly while still being the best way to make a 4?"


Sully:

Even if I could hit the ball like they do and you do I would probably encourage them to play that hole conservatively and for position on the second shot. I've just always been and thought conservatively that way strategically and just about totally because I really never had the choice; but if I were caddying or coaching I think I would just explain what I thought the likely outcomes might be with either side of that strategic spectrum (to go or play for position) and just let them decide for themselves the reward and risk ramifications they might have to deal with.

However, if the pin was left of center on that green as opposed to right of center I believe I would insist a lot more that they play conservatively and for position (if a player missed a left of center pin on the left side of that green I would think a par would be what he would and should expect just because there's not enough green to work with and given the way that green is on the left).  Maybe it would be similar missing right to a right pin but something tells me that wouldn't be quite so bad. But then one always needs to consider the risk of playing a pretty long layup second into the ideal position for a left center pin third shot----eg OB is definitely not that far from the ideal right side layup spot to a left of center pin.
 
But just to give you a good example of how strategically different the options were with the course after the rain, I note Gavin Dear's third shot on Sunday. He was coming in from the right side to a mid-right side pin and he just sent the ball about 30 feet over the pin and sucked it all the way back hole high to about 5-6 ft and birdied it. Of course that shot would not have been remotely possible before the Friday rain came!
 

[JESII]

Two things...first, i responded to your IM with an IM, check it out...second, remind me to decline if you ever ask to caddy for me...

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