Letter, primary sources from White Bear historian strongly suggest Ross design!

[Tom MacWood]

TEP
Ross was traveling with his infant daughter - I believe she was 7 months old - what are the odds he made more than one trip back and forth with her? There is no record of him making any other voyages other than these two.

Here is an article about his trip abroad and there is no mention of him commuting.

I have not been able to place Ross within 1000 miles of the Twin Cities in 1910. He is accounted for at Pinehurst (and in DC for a day) in early 1910. He was in the UK in the summer and in Boston in the early fall. I don't know where he was in November or December, perhaps he, his wife and baby daughter enjoyed a white Christmas at White Bear.

[TEPaul]

"I have not been able to place Ross within 1000 miles of the Twin Cities in 1910. He accounted for at Pinehurst (and in DC for a day) in early 1910. He was in the UK in the summer and in Boston in the early fall. I don't know where he was in November or December, perhaps he, his wife and baby daughter enjoyed a white Christmas at White Bear."


Tom:

The fact that YOU have not been able to place Ross within 1000 miles of the Twin Cities in 1910 doesn't mean all that much to me and probably shouldn't to any competent historian either. AND it MOST ASSUREDLY should not be passed off by YOU or anyone else as some good reason or PROOF that he wasn't! 

[Tom MacWood]

Mark:

I think your case would be stronger if you didn't bring me into it.

I do not have any idea of the history of the course.  Whether Ross or Watson or even someone else should receive credit for the design, it's a unique course -- enough that I couldn't begin to tell you with certainty who did it.  I have never seen Ross greens OR Watson greens as wild as those at White Bear Yacht Club.  Anything I've said about its pedigree was based on being told it was a Ross course, and was meant only to express praise for the work that was done -- not to confirm its origins.

TD
I haven't seen enough of Watson's courses to know what his greens were like. Its possible someone else was responsible for the greens, on the other hand he was a product of St. Andrews and may have had some appreciating of wild contours, including the Ladies putting course.

Watson was not your average professional import, which is why I'm curious about Mark's contention that Foulis sent for Watson, and that is how ended up in the US, and at Minikahda. Watson's father was prominent businessman and a member of the R&A. William was a graduate of St. Andrews U. In the early 20th C there weren't too many imported Scots who were university graduates.

[Tom MacWood]

"I have not been able to place Ross within 1000 miles of the Twin Cities in 1910. He accounted for at Pinehurst (and in DC for a day) in early 1910. He was in the UK in the summer and in Boston in the early fall. I don't know where he was in November or December, perhaps he, his wife and baby daughter enjoyed a white Christmas at White Bear."


Tom:

The fact that YOU have not been able to place Ross within 1000 miles of the Twin Cities in 1910 doesn't mean all that much to me and probably shouldn't to any competent historian either. AND it MOST ASSUREDLY should not be passed off by YOU or anyone else as some good reason or PROOF that he wasn't! 

Be my guest.

[TEPaul]

"Be my guest."




No problem:

"On a Sunday noon, the summer of 1910, she [Mrs. John G. Ordway] was lunching at the home of her father-in-law, Lucius P. Ordway, at Dellwood.  Among the guests besides herself were William Mitchell, Henry Schurmeier, and Donald Ross, a very well-known golf course architect.  These gentlemen were discussing plans for a nine-hole course for the White Bear Yacht Club."

[TEPaul]

"Watson's father was prominent businessman and a member of the R&A. William was a graduate of St. Andrews U."


Tom:

I find that to be very interesting and potentially significant but the question is can you proof it and if so how?  

[Tom MacWood]

Why is it significant?

[TEPaul]

"Why is it significant?"


Tom:

In my opinion, because it potentially indicates both education and connections.

On the other hand, you haven't even addressed my question about whether you can prove William's father was a prominent businessman and member of the R&A or whether William graduated from or even went to St. Andrews University, have you?  

[Tom MacWood]

TEP
I agree it is potentially significant. Here is his college transcript and a census report from 1881. Are you familiar with the painting Medal Day 1894? John C. Watson is portrayed with the rest of the R&A membership.

[Jim_Kennedy]

Dr. Mammel has put forth his beliefs about the origins of his club and has made a good case. Those who have questioned some of his beliefs have put forth some solidly researched information that at times contradicts the Dr.'s position, but he doesn't seem to mind the back and forth. The only people who do seem to mind are Jay Flemma, who left the discussion when it was clear that he couldn't answer the questions asked of him, and Tom Paul, who is only here reprising his Javert impersonation.

There isn't much room between Dr.Mammel and Tom MacWood, and they seem to be able to make exchanges without creating any animosity between themselves. If all the other garbage were removed (I will gladly remove any post I made) what's left would be a very informative discussion, one that seems to clarify a lot of the history of WBYC.  

[TEPaul]

"TEP
I agree it is potentially significant. Here is his college transcript and a census report from 1881. Are you familiar with the painting Medal Day 1894? John C. Watson is portrayed with the rest of the R&A membership."


Tom:

I'm glad you at least agree it's potentially significant if Willie Watson gradutated from St. Andrews University and that his father was a prominent businessman and member of the R&A.

I believe I am familiar with the painting Medal Day but I did not know that a John C. Watosn is portrayed with the rest of the R&A membership in that painting.

That census evidence is impressive research; thanks. How can you be certain that it is the same Willie Watson of American golf architecture noteriety?

[Tom MacWood]

TEP
Because his father and brother John M both migrated to the US. John M was also a pro and minor golf architect. Do you require documentation?

[TEPaul]

“The only people who do seem to mind are Jay Flemma, who left the discussion when it was clear that he couldn't answer the questions asked of him, and Tom Paul, who is only here reprising his Javert impersonation.”



Jim Kennedy:

Honestly, what is the point of a remark like that on this thread? Personally, I just don't think your posts on here add a damn thing or even mean a damn thng. You seem to be something akin to be some frustrated adviser on etiquette and not much else. Even that I doubt you know much about or could have much to contribute about. Occasionally you seem to make some irrelevant remark and when questioned about it you seem to go to lengths to explain that it should be at least understandable. Understandable perhaps in some context but to what point on here on these subjects? Not much that I can see other than it is understandable in some context. So is the statement, “The dog walked across the street” I guess!  

I don't have much at all invested in the architectural history of YBYC even though I have found Dr Mark Mammel's offerings and take on it interesting as I have to some extent MacWood's and Moriarty's. I've never been there, never seen it, never played it, and with you on here again trying to drag this thread back to some personal refereering on your part as you did with Merion, I think I'm outta here.  

[TEPaul]

"TEP
Because his father and brother John M both migrated to the US. John M was also a pro and minor golf architect. Do you require documentation?"

Tom:

I'm not really requiring anything but if you feel like trying to prove that census information you just provided really was the Willie Watson and his father we are talking about on here then by all means go for it! I'm pretty sure the name William Watson was a pretty common one in Scotland! 

By the way, when did the Willie Watson of American golf architecture that we are talking about die?

[DMoriarty]

Dr. Mammen,

  

It's Dr. MAMMEL! - the second time you can't get his name right in one day!

My mistake Jay.   I have a nasty habit of focusing on substance rather than spending my time proofing, so am glad you hav enough time to carefully read my posts checking my syntax and such.  It's as if I have an online secretary, and lord knows I need one!

My apologies to Dr. Mammel.   

But Jay, since you obviously have the time, I'd appreciate it if you would be so kind as to addess my questions.

Thanks in advance.

[Tom MacWood]

"TEP
Because his father and brother John M both migrated to the US. John M was also a pro and minor golf architect. Do you require documentation?"

Tom:

I'm not really requiring anything but if you feel like trying to prove that census information you just provided really was the Willie Watson and his father we are talking about on here then by all means go for it! I'm pretty sure the name William Watson was a pretty common one in Scotland!  

By the way, when did the Willie Watson of American golf architecture that we are talking about die?

I'd be glad to. The first and second document are from a US Census in 1900. The Watsons are living in Minneapolis. The newspaper article is from the LA Times (6/11/1911). William Watson died in 1941.

[Jim_Kennedy]

Its basically pretty simple Tom Paul, the only reason you came into this discussion was to bash the guy you always like to bash.

My remarks are there to make it clear that you aren't here trying to gain any knowledge, you're just here to interject your brand of incivility towards certain posters.   

As a matter of fact that was your entrance to this thread, berating me for something I posted at a time when you had no involvement on this thread at all. You just had to stick your nose in where it wasn't needed.

.........and there could never be any refereeing of a Merion thread, you're the Serena Williams of that court.

I highly doubt that you will be 'outta here', your personality won't allow it.

[TEPaul]

""Its basically pretty simple Tom Paul, the only reason you came into this discussion was to bash the guy you always like to bash."



Jim Kennedy:

Not at all. I haven't bashed or been uncivil to anyone on this thread but there is no doubt the only reason you're on this thread is to make a statement like the one above.

I may have some philosophical and actual differences of opinion with the way some people on here analyze historical material (which is all I've expressed on this thread) and apparently you either can't or don't see the difference between that and incivility.

[TEPaul]

Tom MacWood:

Good research stuff on that post #65. Thanks. I notice, however, that the 1911 article seems to be talking about Willie Watson's father and not Willie Watson. I also note that the article mentions that John C. Watson seems to have been a member of the R&A. But was Willie Watson and is it provable that Willie Watson either went to or graduated from St. Andrews University?

If you want to carry on this specific discussion (which I very much would like to for a number of reasons) perhaps we should consider taking it to its own separate thread.

[Jim_Kennedy]

TEPaul,

Fine, then let's just say we see it differently and leave it at that. I am satisfied with my position.

[Tom MacWood]

Tom MacWood:

Good research stuff on that post #65. Thanks. I notice, however, that the 1911 article seems to be talking about Willie Watson's father and not Willie Watson. I also note that the article mentions that John C. Watson seems to have been a member of the R&A. But was Willie Watson and is it provable that Willie Watson either went to or graduated from St. Andrews University?

If you want to carry on this specific discussion (which I very much would like to for a number of reasons) perhaps we should consider taking it to its own separate thread.

TEP
Yes, I just proved it. If you check his St. Andrews U. records you will see that the info matches the 1881 census. And that info matches the 1900 US Census - John C. Watson, William Watson and John Martin Watson are all living Minneapolis. And that is obviously the same John C Watson mentioned in the 1911 article. Annandale, mentioned in the artilce, was designed by William Watson.  If you need more proof I have an article or two that state William Waston (golf architect) attended St.A U. Why are you trying to side track this thread, what are you trying to prove?

[Rich Goodale]

Tom MacW

Good reserach regarding Watson and Ross.  I would pick a couple of nits, however, namely:

1.  The info from St. Andrews only indicates that Willie W. attended the University for a couple of years, not that he was a "graduate.".  There is no mention of him graduating, which I am sure they would have provided if he had in fact graduated.  No big deal, as even Tiger Woods was unwilling to spend his full 4 years at Uni when fame and fortune beckoned in the golfing world....

2.  Ross's manifest info does not include the whole summer of 1910, as he arrived back in the USA on September 3, so it is not impossible that he was in Minnesota in the summer of 1910 as the Ordway diary notes.  It is also possible that he may have visited in May or late September/early October, which many people might mistake for "summer" if the weather was felciitous.  Or, maybe Ms. Ordway just had the year wrong by a year or two, (as did the esteemed Alan Wilson)......

Keep on researching, as you are adding to our and, I would suspect, Dr. Mammel's understanding, even if not yet convincing some of us as to to the conclusions you draw from your and other information.

3.

[Tom MacWood]

Rich
You're right. It does not mention if he was awarded a degree.

Ross arived back in the US on September 13, not the 3rd. Summer is summer, especially in Minnesota, either he visited in the summer of '10 or he didn't. And based on his documted trip abroad it appears very unlikely he visited that summer. Add to that the fact this was a summer colony (in Minnesota), its unlikely there was anyone around to visit outside the prime summer months. By the way his interview in the Boston Globe is from October.

IMO the 1910 visit is a red herring. The club's pamphlet from 1917-18 said Watson designed the course and the commodore of the club in 1925 confirms the pamphlet.

[TEPaul]

“Why are you trying to side track this thread, what are you trying to prove?”


Tom MacWood:

I’m not trying to sidetrack this thread. Why in the world do you think I said to you on a post this morning the following?

“If you want to carry on this specific discussion (which I very much would like to for a number of reasons) perhaps we should consider taking it to its own separate thread.”

As usual, you apparently didn’t even read it or if you did apparently you didn’t understand it. That’s a problem and always has been. What’s that about anyway? Are you only interested in what you say on here and not what others say in response?


I do have a point in asking if it's provable if Willie Watson graduated from St Andrews University, but first I would like to know if Willie Watson was or was considered to be over there or over here a professional golfer/teacher and perhaps also a greenkeeper/clubmaker etc who did architecture on the side in the beginning as so many of the other early immigrant Scot/English professionals of his early time were and were considered to be.

[TEPaul]

"Annandale, mentioned in the artilce, was designed by William Watson."


Tom MacWood:

That is what I've always understood, but then why do you suppose only J. C. Watson (his father) was mentioned in that 1911 article regarding making suggestions for the layout of Annandale?