Caddies - Why do you like 'em? Why don't you?

[Anthony Gray]

Anthony, as someone who scrimps and saves to have the cash that the top courses charge, "another 100 bucks", is part of the next course I hope to play.

For $100 and armed with a knowledgable partner or a strokesaver, I'll save the cash every time (and have, I have never paid for a caddy, and my dad remains the only person other than me to have carried my bag). My bag isn't so heavy.

  Scott,

  I ment the courses that the poster before me mentioned like Pebble Beach ect. Bandon is know around $700 a day for golf and a room. 

  Anthony

[Scott Warren]

Cool, cheers.

[Joel Zuckerman]

Joel,
 It's a huge leap to assume all the members of this forum are sophisticated in all aspects of golf.

 

I guess so....it has been my assumption hanging around here for a year or two that most anyone with enough interest in the esoterica of GCA to be here in the first place had some sort of knowledge and/or experience about the whole caddie thing---one of classic golf's most elemental experiences, but now I see I've been mistaken.

As to the "intimacy factor" I can not disagree more.  Even with caddies that did not do a good job, I almost have always found the bond between a group and caddies to be stronger than four people playing without them.  For whatever reason, caddies seem to add an interesting extra dimension to conversation that adds to the experience.

I totally agree with this sentiment.  My comment earlier was reflecting a friend's point-of-view..not my own.  Personally, I think caddies add, not detract, from the fun/frivolity of any casual golf round.  If they are quiet, introverted, or just young kids, there's no way they should intrude or stifle your group's conversation.  And in many cases, caddies add a great dimension to the story-telling, camaraderie, etc.

One last caddie advantage that has been lightly touched upon:  Many/most are adept at tracking, and then finding an errant shot---another very valuable element to the entire experience.
 

[Rich Goodale]

Joel,
 It's a huge leap to assume all the members of this forum are sophisticated in all aspects of golf.

 

I guess so....it has been my assumption hanging around here for a year or two that most anyone with enough interest in the esoterica of GCA to be here in the first place had some sort of knowledge and/or experience about the whole caddie thing---one of classic golf's most elemental experiences, but now I see I've been mistaken.

Joel and Adam

You can take your tongues out of your cheeks whenever you wish....

Rich

[jonathan_becker]

To me, Rule Numero Uno for a caddy is to HUSTLE.  Get to the ball before the player does, with a distance number at the ready.  However fast your player is, you need to be faster.  No exceptions. 

Way too often, I find myself at the ball, ready to hit a shot, and the damn caddy is still sachaying up the fairway behind me.  A good caddy is always in front of his player.  I don't know when caddies decided it was OK to dilly dally and slow their player down, but 90% of the time, that's what you get and it wrecks the whole thing for me. 

I completely agree....I used to caddie at Butler and that was my personal rule.  I'm 6'4" and used my long stride to cover ground in a hurry.  There is no excuse to fall behind your player.  He hits, you move....and it better be fast.  In regards to helping my player, I always ask on the first tee what he wants me to do for him.  It sets the tone for the rest of the day and you don't have to guess what he wants. Also, I bust my ass for the first few holes and figure out the guy's personality along the way.  That determines how much I'm going to open my mouth throughout the round.

My hustle was rewarded by always getting good loops and I never received less than $90 on a single bag for 18.  Not to toot my own horn  , but as a scratch player and someone that knows how to play the game, you would not be disappointed with me on your bag.  Am I worth at least $90?  Who can say?  But you will leave with me as the new bar for your next caddie.

In regards to my experience with caddies at clubs in the U.S., most are too slow, don't know that much about the game, and are just doing it to make a few bucks for the summer....which is fine, but most are not worth what you have to pay them. That's why I normally don't take them unless it's mandatory, like I was at Butler.  If I get a caddie that hustles, knows what he's doing, and doesn't keep me waiting, I'll normally tip him what works out to be close to $100.  And if you're terrible, slow, and don't know when to shut up, you'll get the bottom rate for that club.  Just my 2 cents.

[D_Malley]

"but as a scratch player and someone that knows how to play the game, you would not be disappointed with me on your bag."

This is just the kind of attitude that i think sometimes hurts my caddy experiences. 
i would be disappointed if you tried to offer me your expert advice without me asking.

some caddies are arrogant and think that their advise is essestial to their player, when they do not even know the type of shots i am contemplkating in my mind.

again if they just follow the rule of Only speak when spoken to everything would be fine

[archie_struthers]

 


Caddies ......love em !  let me count the ways


they provide the following services


psychologiy ........always there to cry to or  give you a pep talk

mathmaticians..........whether it be  figuring yardage ,  the second at Saratoga , or the having the latest line for any sport
                                         they know the numbers

pragmatists               even though you think you can hit a shot , they know you can't and advise accordingly

diplomats                  when you say you've never played worse .....they remind you of another day   (lol)

chauffeurs                  they'll  meet you in Florida with your car
                  
meteorologists             particularly in Ireland , as they can foretell the future

concierges                 know all the right bars , taverns and restaurants


sure there's more  but got to go  

[Joel Zuckerman]

[

 There is no excuse to fall behind your player.  He hits, you move....and it better be fast.  In regards to helping my player, I always ask on the first tee what he wants me to do for him.  It sets the tone for the rest of the day and you don't have to guess what he wants. Also, I bust my ass for the first few holes and figure out the guy's personality along the way.  That determines how much I'm going to open my mouth throughout the round.


You sound like an excellent caddie!

[PThomas]

cost certainly is a factor, esp if approaching triple digits!

if they all did a good job, that would be different...but when they dont hustle etc that pisses me off

i think the best one i had was at Rolling Green...he could REALLY read those tricky greens

[jonathan_becker]

"but as a scratch player and someone that knows how to play the game, you would not be disappointed with me on your bag."

This is just the kind of attitude that i think sometimes hurts my caddy experiences. 
i would be disappointed if you tried to offer me your expert advice without me asking.

some caddies are arrogant and think that their advise is essestial to their player, when they do not even know the type of shots i am contemplkating in my mind.

again if they just follow the rule of Only speak when spoken to everything would be fine

I understand what you're saying, but you must not have comprehended my post properly.  I said that I get a feel for the player and go from there.  Actually, I said "Also, I bust my ass for the first few holes and figure out the guy's personality along the way.  That determines how much I'm going to open my mouth throughout the round."

The entire thing about DONT OPEN YOUR MOUTH, and don't offer any advice, I don't buy.  I'm not going to tell you to cut a 4 iron back into the wind from 205 and to do it immediately!  I analyze the player from driving range and go from there.  By 3 tee, I can tell what kind of player you are and more than likely pick up on your personality and adjust accordingly.  The last thing I want to do is offer advice or talk to someone that doesn't want it.  That goes back to my asking a player on the first tee what he wants me to do for the day.  I WANT YOU TO HAVE FUN UNDER YOUR TERMS!  Me saying that I'm a scratch player is just so that you know I'm competent to be on your bag and I NEVER tell my guy my playing abilities unless he asks.

D_Malley....don't worry, if I had you as my player, I would be so far away from your ass throughout the round, that you would only see me when it was your time to hit!    AND you would love me!!!!!

[jonathan_becker]

[

 There is no excuse to fall behind your player.  He hits, you move....and it better be fast.  In regards to helping my player, I always ask on the first tee what he wants me to do for him.  It sets the tone for the rest of the day and you don't have to guess what he wants. Also, I bust my ass for the first few holes and figure out the guy's personality along the way.  That determines how much I'm going to open my mouth throughout the round.


You sound like an excellent caddie!

THANK YOU    I hold a very high standard for loopers

[Joel Zuckerman]

"but as a scratch player and someone that knows how to play the game, you would not be disappointed with me on your bag."

This is just the kind of attitude that i think sometimes hurts my caddy experiences. 
i would be disappointed if you tried to offer me your expert advice without me asking.

some caddies are arrogant and think that their advise is essestial to their player, when they do not even know the type of shots i am contemplkating in my mind.

again if they just follow the rule of Only speak when spoken to everything would be fine

I understand what you're saying, but you must not have comprehended my post properly.  I said that I get a feel for the player and go from there.  Actually, I said "Also, I bust my ass for the first few holes and figure out the guy's personality along the way.  That determines how much I'm going to open my mouth throughout the round."

The entire thing about DONT OPEN YOUR MOUTH, and don't offer any advice, I don't buy.  I'm not going to tell you to cut a 4 iron back into the wind from 205 and to do it immediately!  I analyze the player from driving range and go from there.  By 3 tee, I can tell what kind of player you are and more than likely pick up on your personality and adjust accordingly.  The last thing I want to do is offer advice or talk to someone that doesn't want it.  That goes back to my asking a player on the first tee what he wants me to do for the day.  I WANT YOU TO HAVE FUN UNDER YOUR TERMS!  Me saying that I'm a scratch player is just so that you know I'm competent to be on your bag and I NEVER tell my guy my playing abilities unless he asks.

Earlier in this thread I commented on how most of my caddie experiences have been positive or neutral.  BUT--I now recall I had a caddie a year or so back at the superb Honors Course in Chattanooga, as I was playing with a high-ranking club official, also a former club champion, and still a fine player. I sliced my first tee shot way right, lousy shot, and the caddie was immediately telling me, not asking or advising, but telling me, what to do on the approach.  My pulse rate shot through the roof, and I did my best to modulate my voice when I told him to back off, leave me be, and let me fgure it out for myself---if I want/need his advice, I'll ask for it!

[jonathan_becker]

"Earlier in this thread I commented on how most of my caddie experiences have been positive or neutral.  BUT--I now recall I had a caddie a year or so back at the superb Honors Course in Chattanooga, as I was playing with a high-ranking club official, also a former club champion, and still a fine player. I sliced my first tee shot way right, lousy shot, and the caddie was immediately telling me, not asking or advising, but telling me, what to do on the approach.  My pulse rate shot through the roof, and I did my best to modulate my voice when I told him to back off, leave me be, and let me fgure it out for myself---if I want/need his advice, I'll ask for it!"

Joel,

Those experiences are the worst. When I'm playing and right off the bat the caddie starts telling me what to do when clearly he has no clue, politely as I can, I tell him to keep his advice/opinions to himself.  It's not being rude, it just sets the tone for the day that I don't care to hear it.

[D_Malley]

John,
I get what you are saying, and i also think that you understand what i mean.
and based on what you have said you are an excellent caddy.

I worked as a caddy for over 13 years and have also trained caddies.
I have also caddied for many tour pros.

I just happen to see many good to great caddies who seem to feel that their advice is essential to the player and cannot be quiet when necessary.

[jonathan_becker]

John,
I get what you are saying, and i also think that you understand what i mean.
and based on what you have said you are an excellent caddy.

I worked as a caddy for over 13 years and have also trained caddies.
I have also caddied for many tour pros.

I just happen to see many good to great caddies who seem to feel that their advice is essential to the player and cannot be quiet when necessary.

Well stated.  And you are correct, most caddies don't know when to keep his/her mouth shut.  The caddie is out there for the player, not the other way around.  I was a tourament golfer before I was a caddie, so I understand your point.

[JNC Lyon]

Caddying is an essential part of the game, and it is one of the things that distinguishes golf from any other sport.  Caddy golf establishes friendships like no other aspect of the sport.  I have caddied for five years at the Country Club of Rochester, although I have caddied less in the past two years because I have been working in the bag room.  With one or two exceptions, the people who I know the best at the club are the ones I have met through caddying.  In 4 hours with someone on a golf course, you will get to know them in a way that you never could otherwise.  While caddying, I've had discussions on history, politics, golf course architecture, women, and school that I would never have off the golf course.

In addition to the personal aspect of the game, it is impossible to understand the importance of caddying to learning how to play the game well and learning the traditions and etiquette of the game.  Walter Hagen, for example, caddied at the Country Club of Rochester.  Sam Snead, Byron Nelson, and Ben Hogan all learned the game through caddying.  2009 Masters Champion Angel Cabrera?  He was a caddy in Argentina.  To preserve the game in America, we must preserve caddying.

I can sympathize with those who enjoy walking and carrying.  This is my preferred method of playing the game, especially at courses that I have played hundreds of times.  However, caddying encourages walking over carts or push carts, and it is therefore necessary for protecting the walk and carry aspect of the game.

I also understand from five years of caddying that there are bad caddies everywhere.  There are those that think they know everything about the game, and those that are lazy and unenthusiastic.  For the latter there is no remedy other than feedback to the caddymaster.  However, many people here have complained about caddies that are too overbearing.  The easiest way to solve this as a player is to let the caddy know up front what he wants him to do.  If he wants him to read all greens, great.  If you want him to only carry the bag, then a good caddy will know to withhold advice.  One thing to keep in mind: if you are playing the course for the first time, a caddy that has seen the course dozens of times will know the greens better than you do.

Overall, it is important to understand the link between caddies and the traditions of the game.  I would strongly encourage you to take a caddy if you have not done so.  It completes one's experience as a golfer.

[PThomas]

perhaps others can confirm this:  it seems like caddies get WAY more money than they used to, even taking into account inflation...true??

minimum wage is like $7.15 /hour i think....so when a kid gets $50 or more for 4 hours work, something seems a bit out of whack

[jonathan_becker]

perhaps others can confirm this:  it seems like caddies get WAY more money than they used to, even taking into account inflation...true??

minimum wage is like $7.15 /hour i think....so when a kid gets $50 or more for 4 hours work, something seems a bit out of whack

It is out of whack and that's why there's no excuse not to hustle and bust your ass!  Where else can a kid get paid that much for 4 hours?

[Anthony Gray]

After reading this thread it occurs to me that peoples opinions about Caddies says more about them than the caddies they have had.

 

  I could not agree more with this statement. I always felt that the when you are at a resort the caddy is part of the experience along with the hotel,spa,food,etc.. I have played Bandon enough that I don't need help with the yardage and putting lines,but my caddy is always a blast. One time the lense blew out of his glasses...hilarious. Who cares if he miss clubs me or misreads a putt I'm at Bandon for God's sake. For those that have had caddies they did not like maybe they did not like you either. It is a golfer/caddy relationship not king/piss boy.

  Anthony

  

[Kevin_Reilly]

perhaps others can confirm this:  it seems like caddies get WAY more money than they used to, even taking into account inflation...true??

minimum wage is like $7.15 /hour i think....so when a kid gets $50 or more for 4 hours work, something seems a bit out of whack

The caddy presumably is at the course for a while before the "4 hours work"....waiting for a loop, at the driving range with you as you warm up, etc.  And he might be there for a short bit after the round (if there are no more loops).  So the "4-hour" shift is probably closer to 5 or 6 hrs. 

[Mark Smolens]

I like the concept of encouraging kids to get involved in the game.  For me that started with pulling my dad's golf cart on Saturday mornings at the Arizona Biltmore or Papago (for a $1 and a post-round cheeseburger, usually at around 9 when we were finishing).  Meeting a h.s. kid for a few hours at Olympia Fields or Ridge is part and parcel of a great golf experience.  Golf is definitely expensive, but isn't that why I work for a living?  So I can play golf?

At a place like Pinehurst or Pebble, the ability of the caddy to read greens is invaluable, and for me greatly enhanced the experience.
On my only trip to Pebble, our caddy -- Jerry Franklin -- was one of the best parts of the trip.  Storyteller, tour guide, plus he knew what he was doing.  Yes, I've had horrible caddy experiences too.  Gordon, at Pinehust, kept clubbing me off my buddy Mike, who was at the time at least 3 irons longer than I was.  On 9 (the par 3), he handed me a club on the tee, and said, "just hit it."  I flushed one, and stood there posing. . . only to watch the 7 iron land 25 yards short!  Mike, of course, had hit a 175 yard 8 iron.  Gordon's read on putts was "speed putt, all day."  Definitely a thanks for nothing day. . .

The next year, we met the caddy master one evening racing around the number 5 course at dusk.  He set us up the next day with Rush, a 65 year old black guy.  I was leery when they switched out my bag so Rush could carry us both.  On the second green, I read my 40 footer to move a cup left to right.  Rush looked up from my buddy's ball (90 degrees and 60' away), and said two balls from the right.  I guess I gave him one of those "fish eye" looks in disbelief, and he responded "man, I been readin' these greens for 43 years. . . two balls from the right."  I couldn't make myself hit a putt I thought broke right outside the hole to the right, so I hit it directly at the hole.  The ball broke exactly two ball below the hole to the left, and I hit every putt where Rush told me the rest of the day.  It was like putting fourth in a scramble. I knew exactly where the ball was going to go, and the putts I missed were due to loft, and not to lack of knowledge of what they'd do.  Great fun.

[Jason Topp]

  The expense factor I find confusing. Places that have caddies are usually expensive to play and expensive to stay. What's another 100 bucks?

  Anthony

I usually pay $40 - $50 at my club.  50 rounds a year converts into $2500.  In other words I pay enough for a caddie I do not need to fund a trip to Scotland each year.

[PThomas]

perhaps others can confirm this:  it seems like caddies get WAY more money than they used to, even taking into account inflation...true??

minimum wage is like $7.15 /hour i think....so when a kid gets $50 or more for 4 hours work, something seems a bit out of whack

The caddy presumably is at the course for a while before the "4 hours work"....waiting for a loop, at the driving range with you as you warm up, etc.  And he might be there for a short bit after the round (if there are no more loops).  So the "4-hour" shift is probably closer to 5 or 6 hrs. 

true...but do kid caddies pay taxes?  if not than the above is less important

and the kind of caddy that Mark S had at Pinehurst is what really can suck about taking a caddy...Mark was at one of the top resorts in the country, probably on vacation, spending a lot of money...and then he gets a really bad caddy....man, if they dont know what they are doing then they should just carry the clubs and clean them and keep up

and with today's economy i wonder if there were more kids looking for caddy jobs in the past when jobs were more plentiful?? some of my daughters high school friends were having a hard time getting jobs this summer

[Joel Zuckerman]

I usually pay $40 - $50 at my club.  50 rounds a year converts into $2500.  In other words I pay enough for a caddie I do not need to fund a trip to Scotland each year.

Consider yourself lucky.  At my club I give a straight $70, which is standard.  Thankfully, caddie restrictions have finally been eased a bit, and a player can walk and carry their own bag at 3 PM or beyond.  So my modus operandi is to show up mid-morning, use a caddy, say goodbye post-round, grab some lunch, return a few phone calls/emails, then head out shouldering my own bag once it's allowed.  These 36 hole outings allow me to space out my somewhat infrequent visits to the club, which is located over an hour away.

[Anthony Gray]

  The expense factor I find confusing. Places that have caddies are usually expensive to play and expensive to stay. What's another 100 bucks?

  Anthony

I usually pay $40 - $50 at my club.  50 rounds a year converts into $2500.  In other words I pay enough for a caddie I do not need to fund a trip to Scotland each year.

  Jason,

 My statement reflects resort/vacation golf. I've never belonged to a club that had caddies so its hard for me to comment. But I would assume resort caddies make more than local club caddies?

  Anthony