Chambers Bay in Trouble?

[Garland Bayley]

...
I really think the course would be booming if it allowed carts. Carts are a huge money maker for the club.

I think it is irresponsible for a municipal entity to build recreation for the public, and then assist the public in not recreating while using the recreation facility.

And in the case of Chambers Bay, carts would be a huge detriment to the course. Furthermore, the USGA has said that in most cases carts don't pay for themselves, because their damage costs more to mitigate than the revenue the provide even when it is not a fescue based course.

[Lou_Duran]

...
I really think the course would be booming if it allowed carts. Carts are a huge money maker for the club.

I think it is irresponsible for a municipal entity to build recreation for the public, and then assist the public in not recreating while using the recreation facility.

And in the case of Chambers Bay, carts would be a huge detriment to the course. Furthermore, the USGA has said that in most cases carts don't pay for themselves, because their damage costs more to mitigate than the revenue the provide even when it is not a fescue based course.

I would be most interested in a citation for the alleged USGA statement.

[Chris Flamion]

I really think the course would be booming if it allowed carts. Carts are a huge money maker for the club.

The problem with carts is how much they destroy the turf, especially when the course doesn't have cart paths at all and people will be driving all over the place.  

Not to mention that we are discussing they are having trouble with debt and I would assume a fleet of carts cost around a quarter million...(pcoket change in the grand scheme but still more debt)

And while carts may pay for themselves over time(that is debatable) they add to the cost of the round which seems to be a problem in the first place.

[Sean Leary]

My understanding is that carts and fescue is a no go....

[Rob Rigg]

Not only would CB have to buy carts but they would have to build in cart paths because the motorized eyesores could not move over many of the current paths.

Furthermore, the course would need a re-design to add in cart paths.

The benefit of not having cart paths, aside from not having carts and actually having golfers get some exercise, is that there is a lot more flexibility in routing and design.

A wet climate, for at least half the year, plus fescue grass is also a definite no no - even dry climate Tetherow struggles with carts on the fescue and does not allow them in the winter.

CB will do just fine as the events bring cash flow to the course and the area, and the economy recovers.

Any recently built course that is NOT hurting in some way, shape or form right now has won the lotter (or was actually well planned).

[Todd Bell]

Can someone enlighten me on the problems with the greens? 

What type of fescue is being used and why a fescue?

How long before poa becomes primary grass?

[Richard Choi]

There is nothing wrong with the greens at Chambers Bay. It took them awhile to grow in because fescue is slow growing and we had some bad growing seasons. But the greens are fine now and should be perfect for US Am next year.

The problem is that it is a pure fescue course and most people are just not used to it. Because it is fescue, the greens are shaggier than what people are used to. Normally, the would run anywhere from 6 to 8 on stimp (will probably running 10 for Us Am). The fescue is also delicate so you cannot allow cart traffic on it. Which is why the course is walking only.

Whether or not poa will take over is not certain. Because fescue is drought tolerant you don't have to water it much, and poa needs a lot of water to grow. You can keep out poa if it is dry enough, but winter gets pretty wet around here, so we will have to see what happens over several years. So far, so good on poa.

[Mike Vegis @ Kiawah]

Maybe they need to allow carts after 12 noon like I read that Kiawah Island does? Is this possible without cart paths? Does Kiawah have cart paths?

We have sand and cochina (shell sand) paths which are in play.  If your ball lands on one of them, you play it as if it was a waste/transition area.

[Garland Bayley]

...
I really think the course would be booming if it allowed carts. Carts are a huge money maker for the club.

I think it is irresponsible for a municipal entity to build recreation for the public, and then assist the public in not recreating while using the recreation facility.

And in the case of Chambers Bay, carts would be a huge detriment to the course. Furthermore, the USGA has said that in most cases carts don't pay for themselves, because their damage costs more to mitigate than the revenue the provide even when it is not a fescue based course.

I would be most interested in a citation for the alleged USGA statement.

"Think about the costs involved in keeping a fleet of carts; purchase or lease price, maintenance, labor costs (salary, insurance, possibly pension) of employees who handle the carts; fuel, a building to house the carts, damage to the course due to compaction, and the construction and repair of cart paths. Some courses also purchase insurance against theft and casualty."
"These costs would suggest that cart rental fees should be more than caddie fees. However, this is rarely the case. This discrepancy between the actual cost and charged fee for carts has played a large role in the demise of caddies. When forced to choose between taking a caddie and riding in a cart, a player will often opt for the less expensive. If the actual costs of caddies and carts were reflected in the fees, more people would take caddies."

A Call to Feet, Golf is a Walking Game, 1995, United States Golf Association

[Rich Goodale]

Garland

The USGA is obfuscating.  If you look on the cart thread you will see that carts are a huge source of net income to golf courses, even when fully costed.  If they do not allow carts, CB is forgoing money which might allow it to remain afloat or just more propserous.  If the USGA really wants to promote walking, why doesn't it give CB an annual subsidy equal to the amount it is losing through not allowing carts?  Now that would be putting one's money where their mouth is....

Rich

[Garland Bayley]

Rihc,

Cart thread? I searched the first 5 pages for cart and found none. Are you obfuscating?

Shall I send a note to the R&A about Royal Dornoch leaving a lot of money on the table because they don't allow carts? Perhaps we should join forces and try to get the R&A to make up the revenue loss that RD is forgoing by not allowing carts.

[Greg Tallman]

$100 for a US Open course and people are complaining? Really?

Well I supose the typical golfer does not understand the difference between their run of the mill $30 course and one that can host a national championship. Sad but true.

[David Kelly]

Well I supose the typical golfer does not understand the difference between their run of the mill $30 course and one that can host a national championship. Sad but true.

If that is true then it argues against the taking on of so much debt to fund the course.

[Tim Leahy]

Maybe they need to allow carts after 12 noon like I read that Kiawah Island does? Is this possible without cart paths? Does Kiawah have cart paths?

We have sand and cochina (shell sand) paths which are in play.  If your ball lands on one of them, you play it as if it was a waste/transition area.

If carts work for Kiawah, Torrey, and Pebble, why not Chambers?

[Richard Choi]

If carts work for Kiawah, Torrey, and Pebble, why not Chambers?

Because none of them feature 100% fescue?

[Garland Bayley]

Maybe they need to allow carts after 12 noon like I read that Kiawah Island does? Is this possible without cart paths? Does Kiawah have cart paths?

We have sand and cochina (shell sand) paths which are in play.  If your ball lands on one of them, you play it as if it was a waste/transition area.

If carts work for Kiawah, Torrey, and Pebble, why not Chambers?

Well, I already told you it was fescue, but I guess you weren't listening. No one wants to despoil Chambers with cart paths like Pebble Beach has been despoiled.
The USGA will be able to put Chambers into the US Open rota as a west coast site and phase out Pebble Beach until they do something about that great scar on its face.

[Adam Clayman]

Tim.Did you really ask that after all the reasons given on this thread already? Fescue turf and its  not designed for carts. Forcing them on a course not designed for them must be carfully considered causing as little impact on the turf as posible. Now if you want to argue that the type of turf is immaterial you'd better be ready for some heat.   

[Rich Goodale]

Rihc,

Cart thread? I searched the first 5 pages for cart and found none. Are you obfuscating?

Shall I send a note to the R&A about Royal Dornoch leaving a lot of money on the table because they don't allow carts? Perhaps we should join forces and try to get the R&A to make up the revenue loss that RD is forgoing by not allowing carts.

Not obfuscating--keep looking, it's on the forum somewhere.  Or, just ask any golf course owner/operator whether or not golf carts are a goldmine/lifline.  If they say no, do not believe them, or send them to me for a refresher course on Econ 101.  Or, just do the math yourself.

Dornoch allows carts for medical reasons, and there are people up there with financial motivations who would LOVE to expand their usage to include the merely chubby or terminally lazy, but so far the golfers have won out over the "greed is good" crowd.  In any case, the club is profitable whereas Chambers Bay apparently is not.