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David Stamm

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Is there a difference?
« on: September 12, 2009, 05:15:56 PM »
Photo courtesy of TN. What say you? What would you rather have? Does it make a difference for you?


http://img183.imageshack.us/img183/5176/rcdcomp.jpg
"The object of golf architecture is to give an intelligent purpose to the striking of a golf ball."- Max Behr

Tommy Williamsen

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Re: Is there a difference?
« Reply #1 on: September 12, 2009, 05:18:26 PM »
Given the look of the surrounds, the top is a clear winner.  If the course were manicured the bottom would be more appropriate.  I love the look of the top course.
Where there is no love, put love; there you will find love.
St. John of the Cross

"Deep within your soul-space is a magnificent cathedral where you are sweet beyond telling." Rumi

Will MacEwen

Re: Is there a difference?
« Reply #2 on: September 12, 2009, 06:24:28 PM »
I agree that the top suits the surrounds.

It also seems to obscure more of the green, making approach shots (for my eye) a little tougher.

Anthony Gray

Re: Is there a difference?
« Reply #3 on: September 12, 2009, 06:26:39 PM »


  Top. Old school


Carl Nichols

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Re: Is there a difference?
« Reply #4 on: September 12, 2009, 06:41:08 PM »
isn't this (the top pic, at least) 13 at Royal County Down?

Brian_Ewen

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Re: Is there a difference?
« Reply #5 on: September 12, 2009, 07:11:44 PM »
Is it a trick question  ???



rjsimper

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Re: Is there a difference?
« Reply #6 on: September 12, 2009, 07:52:43 PM »
You and el emperor are not playing fair.

The discussion is not about what you'd rather have.

The discussion is not what about what looks better.

The discussion is about "Is there any strategic difference between the two" and "Is there a greater thrill in hitting the green over one of these bunkers or the other"

I've never said I "prefer" the old LACC bunkers. Just like I'd prefer the bunker on 6 at Riviera was old school instead of the current look...but that doesn't change the fundamental nature of the golf hole.  It's still a 6 iron (or whatever) that will punish you if you come up 20 yards short.

If I have a D-SLR in my hand, you know what my choice is.  If I have an 8 iron in my hand and a slight breeze into my face, I don't give a damn what bunker is there.

Emil Weber

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Re: Is there a difference?
« Reply #7 on: September 12, 2009, 08:51:15 PM »
I can't undertand those who say they wouldn't give a 'damn' about these bunkers if they were playing. For me, aesthetics is such a big part of the course and the enjoyment.
 So for that reason I feel a little bit disgusted by the bottom picture. That white, flashy sand looks so out of place and unnatural in that position.

David Stamm

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Is there a difference?
« Reply #8 on: September 12, 2009, 11:23:03 PM »
No trick questions, Brian. No 'gotchas'.

Yes, Carl, it is Royal County Down.


Ryan, this thread is not about you. And yes, THIS thread IS about what others would rather have, not our discussion on the other thread.


Ryan, why do you think MacKenzie, Bell, Tillinghast, etc, built bunkers the way they did?
"The object of golf architecture is to give an intelligent purpose to the striking of a golf ball."- Max Behr

Bill_McBride

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Is there a difference?
« Reply #9 on: September 12, 2009, 11:52:57 PM »
The top is tops.

I felt sorry for old Dick Wilson today, looking at Rees' "renovation" of Cog Hill (as Hoch insisted on calliing it).  Those catchers mitt looking bunkers Rees builds, all nebula looking, really do suck.

The bottom photo looks like a Rees "renovation."

Kirk Gill

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Is there a difference?
« Reply #10 on: September 13, 2009, 12:24:08 AM »
Those bunkers look different, and would play different.

Aesthetically, the bunker in the upper picture benefits from having a lip with vegetation that is continued down from the hillside which makes it feel like a natural part of the surroundings. The lip shape also fits in with the hillside behind, creating a natural feel. The sand color also fits in with the other colors. Lastly, it benefits from having actually been in the picture as taken instead of having been added via photoshop.

The lower bunker is too white. It's less intimidating-looking, and for a reason - the lack of all that veg on the top lip would make it an easier bunker to get out of. That veg is so thick, though, that as lovely as it is, it would be incredibly penal if one was to have the misfortune to land a ball in it. The lower bunker would be more appropriate for a course that would host players of more varying levels of ability.

The issue isn't that I necessarily prefer one style of bunker over another, in terms of edging, or even sand color, aesthetically. Obviously, in these particular pictures the bunker in the upper picture wins the day (what with it being original and all). Still, for me, there are courses where the sharp-edged white bunkers have a look that I really like, and from a playability standpoint they don't have all that bushiness that could catch a ball and likely prevent any kind of meaningful recovery shot other than a hack. What I DO like is when a course has a plan that incorporates the surrounding landscape, the vegetation in areas that are not in play, the grassed playing surfaces, and the bunkers and their surrounds into a cohesive whole from both an aesthetic and playability standpoint.
"After all, we're not communists."
                             -Don Barzini

rjsimper

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Is there a difference?
« Reply #11 on: September 13, 2009, 12:45:47 AM »

Ryan, this thread is not about you. And yes, THIS thread IS about what others would rather have, not our discussion on the other thread.


Ryan, why do you think MacKenzie, Bell, Tillinghast, etc, built bunkers the way they did?


Fair enough - then it's your turn to respond on the other thread!

I think they built bunkers the way they did for reasons of artistry. I've never said I thought artistry had no place in GCA, but it does not change my belief that it does not impact strategy or play.

For example, take 18 at Stone Eagle and 18 at Trump LA.  Are the bunkers more nicely done at SE? Yes they are.  Do I like the look of those better? Yes I do. Does it change the way the hole is played that one hole's bunkers are prettier than the other's? No it doesn't.  You will find me in agreement with you as to what I prefer here, but from a perspective of how the game is played it really makes no difference.

Fortunately for all of us, golf architecture is not solely utilitarian in purpose.

Ed Oden

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Is there a difference?
« Reply #12 on: September 13, 2009, 12:51:12 AM »
David, I'm not sure exactly what the point is.  Obviously, the photoshop bunker doesn't fit the surrounds.  Neither would the RCD bunker (complete with surrounding growth) photoshopped into ANGC.  Wasn't the photoshop bunker intentionally created to contrast rather then blend in with the natural surrounds?  If so, its not really a fair question.  Its like putting a red brick colonial house on the beach and asking folks whether they like it better than the timeless beach house next door.

Ed

Anthony Gray

Re: Is there a difference?
« Reply #13 on: September 13, 2009, 10:51:17 AM »


  How would they play differently?

  Anthony


Jim_Kennedy

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Is there a difference?
« Reply #14 on: September 13, 2009, 11:00:08 AM »
Anthony,
I think they do play differently. There is little to fear and nothing unkown if you land in (or on the edges of) the lower bunker, not so with the one in the upper photo.

The aesthetics speak for themselves.

(If you think the bunker in the lower photo looks 'better' there is something wrong with you)  :o ;D
"I never beat a well man in my life" - Harry Vardon

Anthony Gray

Re: Is there a difference?
« Reply #15 on: September 13, 2009, 11:08:27 AM »
Anthony,
I think they do play differently. There is little to fear and nothing unkown if you land in (or on the edges of) the lower bunker, not so with the one in the upper photo.

The aesthetics speak for themselves.

(If you think the bunker in the lower photo looks 'better' there is something wrong with you)  :o ;D

  I think it is purely aesthetic. Been there RCD. I think you use the same club for each bunker. I think the look works great for RCD, but how out of place would that upper picture look at Augusta National?l

  Anthony


Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Is there a difference?
« Reply #16 on: September 13, 2009, 11:12:54 AM »
I'd wait until the snow drifts melted before going out to play golf.
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Rich Goodale

Re: Is there a difference?
« Reply #17 on: September 13, 2009, 11:15:27 AM »
The bottom picture is just a caricature.  Put the gleaming white sand in the upper picture and it will look even more hideous.

Anthony Gray

Re: Is there a difference?
« Reply #18 on: September 13, 2009, 11:21:59 AM »
The bottom picture is just a caricature.  Put the gleaming white sand in the upper picture and it will look even more hideous.

  Rich,

 Do you think that white sand at the Castle Course looks out of place?

  Anthony


Jim_Kennedy

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Is there a difference?
« Reply #19 on: September 13, 2009, 11:25:19 AM »
Anthony,
If you can look at that thick brown bush at the edges of the bunker and say that you don't even think about it then yes, it's just aesthetics for you.

"I never beat a well man in my life" - Harry Vardon

Carl Nichols

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Is there a difference?
« Reply #20 on: September 13, 2009, 11:39:56 AM »
That bunker is so out of play from where the picture is taken -- probably about 150 out, from the middle of the fairway, with a bunker that's gotta be more than 80 yards from the green -- that I really don't think its style should or could affect one's shot.     

Anthony Gray

Re: Is there a difference?
« Reply #21 on: September 13, 2009, 11:52:37 AM »
Anthony,
If you can look at that thick brown bush at the edges of the bunker and say that you don't even think about it then yes, it's just aesthetics for you.



  Jim,

 I do not disagree with you, I am just saying it is the same club/shot. Mentally I agree with you concerning the shot.

  Anthony



Peter Pallotta

Re: Is there a difference?
« Reply #22 on: September 13, 2009, 11:55:18 AM »
David - most of the guys on this site are much better golfers than I am. Also, we all have slightly different aesthetic tastes. I'd prefer no bunker there at all. If I ended up short of the green, that would be penalty enough for me. Why is a full stroke (instead of a half-stroke) penalty always double-plus-good? Why do most of us who say we abhor the card-and-pencil mentality (in theory) prove over again that we're all for it (in practice)?  This is one of the few points on which I disagree with TN.  Yes, the top (naturall-looking) bunker is prefereable in many ways to the bottom one; but I tend to think that any focus on bunkers is too much focus on bunkers.  The placement of fairway bunkers seems to me the only important and useful aspect of all this bunker-talk. There's only so many ways you can use bunkers around greens, and maybe that is one area in particular where there's not much difference between the great/interesting architects and their less-talented brethren. But again, I may feel this way only because I'm a poor bunker player, and because I don't like sand anywhere, even on a beach (where I prefer to look at it from 50 yards away and from under an umbrella wearing a seer-sucker suit and a straw fedora, and with a pitcher of gin and tonic at my elbow. That, my friend, is civilization...)

Peter     

 

Rich Goodale

Re: Is there a difference?
« Reply #23 on: September 13, 2009, 12:04:05 PM »
Anthony

We're not talking about the Castle Course, but about a picture of RCD.

Carl

You are right that the picture displays esthetics more than a real life playing situation.

Rich

Anthony Gray

Re: Is there a difference?
« Reply #24 on: September 13, 2009, 12:09:15 PM »
Anthony

We're not talking about the Castle Course, but about a picture of RCD.

Carl

You are right that the picture displays esthetics more than a real life playing situation.

Rich

 Rich,

  I know that is RCD, but my question to you is if the white sand at The Castle Course out of place?

  Anthony