Brad's review of Merion

[PThomas]

in the Sept 5 Golfweek Brad rated Merion a 9.5, and out of 100 points total in the ten categories he gave it 92.

Is Merion the best course in the country?  In the world??

[JESII]

No, but it is really, really good.

What sort of number do the other top courses get? Is 92 the highest? Why would it imply that Merion is the best course in the world?

[Rich Goodale]

With all due respect to "Brad" I give Merion 7326 points in my 777 categories and rate it at 9.428571...  There are at least 10-15 other courses which are in the 9.41-9.45 range, so No, it is not the best course in the country, much less the world.  IMVHO, of course....

[Adam Clayman]

Even before a shower I had it 10. Even with it's current maintenance meld. For those GW rating criteria challenged that puts in the top five classic courses I have seen.

I did play it with someone who had never given a 10, which just confused the heck out of me.

[PThomas]

No, but it is really, really good.

What sort of number do the other top courses get? Is 92 the highest? Why would it imply that Merion is the best course in the world?

i didnt mean that 92 implied anything Jim....just my question of how good it is

[JESII]

Merion's great, with 18 distinctive holes that each fall somewhere between really good and perfect.

[Garland Bayley]

No, but it is really, really good.

What sort of number do the other top courses get? Is 92 the highest? Why would it imply that Merion is the best course in the world?

If you were to look on their website, you would probably be able to see the numbers given the other courses. I recall from the modern list there were only two over 90, Sand Hills and Pac Dunes. I think Sand Hills was 93.something, which means Brad puts Merion at the level of Pac Dunes.

[JESII]

Thanks Garland...I assume the other courses usually thrown in these same conversations have not been rated...

[Sean_A]

I don't know if Merion is the best or how many points it should earn, but I haven't played a better course than Merion.  So far as inland courses go, it is comfortably the best I have played.  If the rough was sorted out to bring the bunkers front and centre ...

Why does Klein have such a high opinion of Merion?

Ciao

[Jim Franklin]

Paul -

You have played it, what do you think?

Personally, it is in my top 10.

[Brian Phillips]

The first time I played Merion I also played Sand Hills, Pine Valley, Aronomink and walked Hidden Creek.  Merion ate me up and I thought it was too tough and came away deflated....and stunned by how the rough was IMHO ruining the strategy of the course...rough being on the inside of many of the "fairway" bunkers.

I then came back and played it together with one of my good friends off this board and really, really started to love it.  I think the rough had been taken out a little and I really appreciated the angles of the fairways off the tee.  I also played Pine Valley again in the same week but would put Merion higher on my list due to the strategy of the holes compared to Pine Valley.

Now I am going to make a statement that might get me shot down but I feel a player on their "A" game (especially if they are driving well) can rip Pine Valley apart but I don't feel that is still quite possible at Merion due to the angles of the fairways.  I still feel you are going have to "work" the ball during tournament play especially if the main man gets the fairways running firm and fast.

I would love to hear what Tom Paul has to say about my opinions.   

[PThomas]

Paul -

You have played it, what do you think?

Personally, it is in my top 10.

Jim, I have only played it that one time and i will give it an incomplete for the time being, since it rained pretty steadily most/all of the round and we evern skipped a couple of holes on the front as the weather was looking so ominous

some thoughts from that visit: 

1. even tho the greens were quite wet, they still had some zip on them...i can only imagine them on a dry day!

2. 'll never forget getting to the 17th tee and staring at how small that green was!

3. the course is such a treat to walk/so well routed

4. i was thrilled when i made a 2putt par on 11, by no means an easy hole

5.  the course  a living museum..you can almost hear the ghosts of all the greats who have made their mark there...Hogan, Jack, Trevino, ...

6. I will also never forget the thrill of first seeing the course on both sides of Ardmore Ave:  Merion and its wicker baskets!  just awesome

7.  the clubhouse and its memorabilia and the grillroom were also terrific

8.  the first was a sturdier challenge than i expected!

9. i loved 13 the little par 3

10.  I hope i get the chance to play it again sometime (and the West, which i understand is also terrific!)

[Sean Leary]

Merion's great, with 18 distinctive holes that each fall somewhere between really good and perfect.

Sully,

Did you feel that way from the first time that you played it? I am wondering whether the middle stretch grew on you as a great player. I played it once with a couple of very high level ams and they thought the beginning and ending were great but not so great in the middle. They only played it once. I am guessing that middle stretch gets more appreciated with multiple playings especially in competition like you have played it.

[Pete Lavallee]

If Merion is such a great course, why does it need to resort to so much rough? Would it still be top 10 with the rough lines brought outside the bunkers? I've never played it, but from TV the rough looks stifling.

[Phil McDade]

I just wanted to bring this back:

http://darwin.chem.villanova.edu/~bausch/images/MEast_combo/index.html

as it's one of the best and most comprehensive photo tours I've seen. Terrific stuff.

A question I've always wanted to ask about Merion East (for those who have played it) -- to what extent do the baskets make a difference in judging approach shots, vs. the conventional flags? On a windy day, can it make a difference? I'm thinkling esp. of some shots to different elevations, particularly 17, maybe 16, a few others. Just curious.

[Brian Phillips]

Phil,

The times that I played it I was not bothered about but I am just not that good a player.  Best to wait for an answer from Sully.

Pete,

I think they have taken the rough out to the bunkers now and it creates better angles into the greens. 

[Joe Bausch]

Here is the same album as above, but better for those with smaller monitors:

http://darwin.chem.villanova.edu/~bausch/images/MEast_combo_1100/

I have a couple of other pic types to offer on Merion.  Here is a QuickTime VR movie made from some pictures while standing just to the right of the 14th green.  So part of the 14th green, most of the 15th hole, and part of the 16th hole are in view:

http://darwin.chem.villanova.edu/~bausch/images/Merion_East/No15_panorama.mov

And here is a landscape-style picture stitched together from three photos taken while standing at the front edge of the par 4 16th.  The quarry is front and center as you peer over it to the drive landing area, and you can get a decent view of the 17th green to the right as well:

http://darwin.chem.villanova.edu/~bausch/images/Merion_East/No16_wideview_3photos_stitched.jpg

[Mike Sweeney]

in the Sept 5 Golfweek Brad rated Merion a 9.5, and out of 100 points total in the ten categories he gave it 92.

So would this make it a 10 Brad Klein ?

http://www.golfweek.com/news/2009/aug/31/klein-design-merion/

[Rob Rigg]

Joe,

Those pictures are fantastic - thanks for sharing - the bunker style is just amazing, the movement of the holes fascinating and the greens look incredibly interesting - how narrow do the fairways usually play? they look like little ribbons and the rough is downright nasty - will be interesting to watch the Ams have at it.

[PThomas]

in the Sept 5 Golfweek Brad rated Merion a 9.5, and out of 100 points total in the ten categories he gave it 92.

So would this make it a 10 Brad Klein ?

http://www.golfweek.com/news/2009/aug/31/klein-design-merion/

he gave it a 9.5 Mike

[Dan Herrmann]

It's the course I've ever played.  Pure genius.  Pure joy.  Brilliant routing. 

Kudos to Matt Schaffer and his crew too.  I really admire their attention to detail, which allows Merion to shine.

[JESII]

Merion's great, with 18 distinctive holes that each fall somewhere between really good and perfect.

Sully,

Did you feel that way from the first time that you played it? I am wondering whether the middle stretch grew on you as a great player. I played it once with a couple of very high level ams and they thought the beginning and ending were great but not so great in the middle. They only played it once. I am guessing that middle stretch gets more appreciated with multiple playings especially in competition like you have played it.

Sean,

When I typed the word "perfect" I wondered which I would answer if someone asked me to back up the claim...#'s 7 and 13 came immediately to mind.

In my opinion, #2 is the weakest hole on the course.

[JESII]

A question I've always wanted to ask about Merion East (for those who have played it) -- to what extent do the baskets make a difference in judging approach shots, vs. the conventional flags? On a windy day, can it make a difference? I'm thinkling esp. of some shots to different elevations, particularly 17, maybe 16, a few others. Just curious.

Never believe a flag, that's not where your ball will be...

[Sean Leary]

Merion's great, with 18 distinctive holes that each fall somewhere between really good and perfect.

Sully,

Did you feel that way from the first time that you played it? I am wondering whether the middle stretch grew on you as a great player. I played it once with a couple of very high level ams and they thought the beginning and ending were great but not so great in the middle. They only played it once. I am guessing that middle stretch gets more appreciated with multiple playings especially in competition like you have played it.

Sean,

When I typed the word "perfect" I wondered which I would answer if someone asked me to back up the claim...#'s 7 and 13 came immediately to mind.

In my opinion, #2 is the weakest hole on the course.

I have only played it twice, but to me, 8 seemed like the weakest. But I can see 2 in the discussion as well.

How about my question about how long it took you to appreciate each of the holes? Just curious.

[JESII]

I was trying to be really subtle by mentioning two of the middle holes as "perfect"...

The truth is, I thought a few of the holes were brutally difficult initially (4, 5, 6, 14 and 18) to the extent that they were hard to appreciate...I still think they are difficult but I've attained a pretty good understanding of how to manage around them within reason.

It is important, in this context, to note that I have played about 20 competitive rounds at Merion and three or four practice rounds immediately tied to those tournaments, and that's it, so my attention to detail has always been limited to... how do I need to play this hole to survive?

I think the reason I've appreciated holes like 7 and 12 and 13 from the outset as opposed to holes like 2 and 16 is that I grew up thinking very strategically around the course. I don't know why, I just grew up appreciating ball control as opposed to power. It might come from a phrase in the golf book that has been my bible..."Power, like fire, is a great servant but a terrible master". Merion has always been a ball control golf course with a handful of places where you need to control the ball while exerting power and when I was first playing there as an 18 - 20 year old I had no chance to meld the two.

I think 2 must be better today than when it was built because the opportunity to get home in two is there for longer players...which forces a more aggressive tee shot. 16 is probably not as good because the last couple of times I played it I hit a 3 wood / 8 or 9 iron. as opposed to a drive and a mid-iron I would guess for a scratch level player 50 years ago.