[Adrian_Stiff]

By Sky Caddies (UK) I mean the hand held devices that tell you its X to the pin. To me they are ruining some things that I am doing within my architecture, my current new course I am building is a quirky affair whilst basically flat has lots of grassy hollows, humps and moundings to conceal the green (you can still see the flag) from some sides, I have introduced hollows infront of greens to deceive the player, wider greens that appear nearer but how can I trick all you golfers if you have a measuring device. The point came home to me yesterday, I have three holes in a narrow strip of land and I dont want golfers able to play an easy approach to the 10th by slicing the ball onto the 12th fairway (for obvious safety and speed issues), I have bunkered the 10th green front right and the angle is slimmer if approached from the wrong angle with nastys through the back, if the golfer does not know the distance its a hard shot, if he knows the exact number its substantially easier. I probably am not going to stop stray balls but to a good player a blast to the wrong fairway and GPS, it might be easier. My point is that these devices are probably ruining some course architecture. A further point could we introduce a rule that GPS devices are not allowed on our course, or even not allow Sky Caddie to measure and plot the course?

[Jamie Barber]

Point taken, but how is it any different from marking off the distance from a stroke saver? I mean, given time, a player could pace out any yardage.

Surely you've got to say no distance aids full stop (even no yardages on tees) or allow any means of measuring as a time saving device?

Personally I'd prefer the former but, as with modern balls, the horse has bolted.

[Brent Hutto]

Is this a course that each golfer will play only once or twice in his lifetime? Because otherwise, your points of argument are completely nullified once a given individual has played each hole in question a handful of times. You would also need to make a rule that once you've played there sufficiently to know the distance you're banned from the course in the future.

Any design feature which requires that the player lack knowledge of the layout is a gimmick, not an architectural necessity.

[Greg Clark]

While you could prevent Skycaddie from plotting the course, all of the other GPS companies map the course from overhead satellite imagery.  No way to prevent that.  I fall in the camp that these devices just deliver the info a yardage book does quicker. 

[Adrian_Stiff]

Point taken, but how is it any different from marking off the distance from a stroke saver? I mean, given time, a player could pace out any yardage.

Surely you've got to say no distance aids full stop (even no yardages on tees) or allow any means of measuring as a time saving device?

Personally I'd prefer the former but, as with modern balls, the horse has bolted.

It is a bit different when you stray onto other fairways with say stroke savers because there are no measurements from there. With a laser you just fire the beam. I agree the lot should be stopped though and I agree the horse has bolted!

[Dan_Callahan]

Adrian,

You fail to take into account that most golfers are mental midgets, myself included. I was thinking this when I visited the TPC Boston, where many of the fairway bunkers look like they sit side by side. But as you get closer to the green you realize there is a ton of room between them. This is certainly true on the 4th hole. But even after repeated playing, I am sure I would have a hard time getting my brain to overrule what my eyes are telling it. That is what makes a course like Tobacco Road so great. You might know that there is plenty of room to miss, but as you stand on the tee and see hazards all over the freakin' place, it is very difficult to hit a good shot. That's what amazed me about how well the pros played at Whistling Straights. With all of that eye candy, I would have a hard time breaking 100.

[Jim_Kennedy]

Adrian,

There are a few thousand golfers on the planet who can't be fooled most of the time, all the rest can. If you make a 150 yard approach look 170 yards long the 'rest' will overclub (SkyCaddy or not), and vice versa. So keep being deceptive because even if one person might not be taken in, another will.

[Brent Hutto]

Adrian,

There are a few thousand golfers on the planet who can't be fooled most of the time, all the rest can. If you make a 150 yard approach look 170 yards long the 'rest' will overclub (SkyCaddy or not), and vice versa. So keep being deceptive because even if one person might not be taken in, another will.

And hey, Sean Arble might play the course some time. He never uses yardage aids and loves matching wits with the archie.

[Bill_McBride]

Adrian, I agree with you but that's me, probably 10% of us are opposed to GPS.  Perversely, I see nothing wrong with looking at a Strokesaver.  In fact, that Strokesaver will help me understand the preferable line of play is to the left.

In this case I am just very happy you haven't considered an internal out of bounds line.  That is true perversity and the hallmark of poor design.

[Adam Clayman]

It's a great question and one which has no easy answer, BUT, from what I gather the defense is at the green with a little help from Mother nature. In other words, firmer turf conditions combined with some well placed undulations and wind should help baffle the stock high ball hitter. Maybe not baffle but just enough to make the information of how far, one small variable in a golfer's decision making process.

[Adrian_Stiff]

Is this a course that each golfer will play only once or twice in his lifetime? Because otherwise, your points of argument are completely nullified once a given individual has played each hole in question a handful of times. You would also need to make a rule that once you've played there sufficiently to know the distance you're banned from the course in the future.

Any design feature which requires that the player lack knowledge of the layout is a gimmick, not an architectural necessity.

brett I can partly agree that in time you will have a knowledge of roughly the distance, but if you play your home courses and you are coming in from unusual places its hard to know within 10 yards how far and in this instance I think knowing the number would make the shot significantly easier.
I disagree that a design feature that requires knowledge is a gimmick, great courses need to be learnt, hollows, false fronts, run off areas are often understood after that first reconasaince, not everything need be fully transparent, these devices negate these things though.

[Tim Bert]

I am in favor of yardage finders, but only the $5 ones you could buy at KMart in the 80s.  You know, the ones that rely on you somehow matching up the tiny pin in the scale and then somehow interpolating the value of 1/50th of an inch on that scale to determine the distance.  The lens didn't even magnify - it was sort of like the old view finder on the cheap cameras of that same time.  Those suckers required skill to use accurately.  We're all in favor of skill being a factor, right?

Down with anything that uses batteries, lasers, or satellites.

[Brent Hutto]

Adrain,

But with respect, I submit that many of those features are not negated by knowing the distance. At least not for players anything like my own (bogey golfer) level. For me to shoot what I consider a decent score (anything under 90 for me is very decent) is not so much about knowing that it's 162 yards to the hole and hitting the ball 161-1/2 yards. It involves knowing that it's 162 yards to the hole and having a plan in mind for what if I hit it 172 or 152 or 158 but 18 yards to the right. In other words, playing to miss in the right spots.

There are places on my home course (BTW not one with overmuch subtlety or local knowledge requirement) where those little "hollows, false fronts" and so forth can be quite vexing until you learn how to just play away from them. And at my level, to "play away" means sometimes clubbing for 10 yards beyond the hole or 40 feet left or right of a certain pin placement. Take away any certain knowledge of the distance and I'll probably fudge my aim a couple more yards one way or the other but it won't change how I play the hole.

But maybe I'm too focused on shots to the green and you're talking about earlier shots (tee shots, layups). But I stand by my concept that quality architecture ought to puzzle the first-timer or reward diligent, thoughtful play on the part of a guy whose played the hole hundreds of times. As such, whether that player knows the distance to the nearest yard or not usually works out to no big deal with the possible exception of highly skilled (elite) players who can hit the ball very high and very accurately with gauged spin.

[Jamie Barber]

It is a bit different when you stray onto other fairways with say stroke savers because there are no measurements from there.

True - but the argument goes that even from the wrong fairway, you can always pace it off so the only thing lasers and GPS do is give you a reading quickly.

Given that golf is a mind game (most important distance between is between the ears and all that), it's a shame these devices remove an element of the game. That said, I do own a laser, although bought mainly for playing away matches.

[Adrian_Stiff]

Brett- when you have hidden ground the hole appears nearer, in time you get to know this, with modern aids this is gone.

[Adrian_Stiff]

It is a bit different when you stray onto other fairways with say stroke savers because there are no measurements from there.

True - but the argument goes that even from the wrong fairway, you can always pace it off so the only thing lasers and GPS do is give you a reading quickly.

Given that golf is a mind game (most important distance between is between the ears and all that), it's a shame these devices remove an element of the game. That said, I do own a laser, although bought mainly for playing away matches.

Jamie you dont really see people pacing an approach from 150 yards. Or at least you never used to. My take is that I like 100-150-200-250 markers in the centre of the fairways, I am ok with planners too they give good indications, but you get distances only from specific points and you still have to factor where the pin is and do your maths and i agree what Bill McBride's comments. I don't like lasers in the spirit of the game, although I agree its very hard to get rid of them and hard to be against them and ok with planners in a 'legal' world.

[Sean_A]

By Sky Caddies (UK) I mean the hand held devices that tell you its X to the pin. To me they are ruining some things that I am doing within my architecture, my current new course I am building is a quirky affair whilst basically flat has lots of grassy hollows, humps and moundings to conceal the green (you can still see the flag) from some sides, I have introduced hollows infront of greens to deceive the player, wider greens that appear nearer but how can I trick all you golfers if you have a measuring device. The point came home to me yesterday, I have three holes in a narrow strip of land and I dont want golfers able to play an easy approach to the 10th by slicing the ball onto the 12th fairway (for obvious safety and speed issues), I have bunkered the 10th green front right and the angle is slimmer if approached from the wrong angle with nastys through the back, if the golfer does not know the distance its a hard shot, if he knows the exact number its substantially easier. I probably am not going to stop stray balls but to a good player a blast to the wrong fairway and GPS, it might be easier. My point is that these devices are probably ruining some course architecture. A further point could we introduce a rule that GPS devices are not allowed on our course, or even not allow Sky Caddie to measure and plot the course?

Adrian

I have been saying this for ages.  Yardage guns offer a measure of security that one just doesn't get from yardage markers or stroke savers because the process of measuring using a gun is interactive.  The other methods are passive and we all doubt some of them sometimes and hence develop a bit of doubt generally.  This is why good caddies walk courses and do their own measurements - it is a form of backed up security.  That isn't to excuse or support traditional yardage aids, but I do think there is a difference which does lead to more confidence and thus erodes the deceptive character of shots (IE using the terrain well) which good archies try to achieve. 

Ciao

[Rich Goodale]

Brett- when you have hidden ground the hole appears nearer, in time you get to know this, with modern aids this is gone.

Adrian

You are right on this, but how many courses open to the public are played by people who play them regularly enough to remember that hidden grond?  I played Castle Stuart a month or so ago, and I know I was deceived by more than one feature, but the odds are that I won't play that course again very often (due to logisitics and other time commitments rather than desire), so if and when I play it again I might remember a thing or two, but because it is so well designed whatever I remember will probably be overwhelemed by what I forget in addition to what I will learn the next time I will play.  This is good on one plane (that of logic), but not good on others (e.g. sensation, learning, equity, etc.).  If I played that (or any other well designed course) regularly, I know I would learn a lot and come to enjoy it even better than I already have.  However, in the real world I will not get those chances (just as I will not at other venues such as Merion, Cypress, Pebble Beach, NGLA, Ballybunion, etc.), so all that deception only teases me rather than fufills me.  In those cases (good/great course, few lifetime plays) a Sky Caddie etc. would do very nicely, thank you.

Rich

[Michael Whitaker]

By Sky Caddies (UK) I mean the hand held devices that tell you its X to the pin. To me they are ruining some things that I am doing within my architecture, my current new course I am building is a quirky affair whilst basically flat has lots of grassy hollows, humps and moundings to conceal the green (you can still see the flag) from some sides, I have introduced hollows infront of greens to deceive the player, wider greens that appear nearer but how can I trick all you golfers if you have a measuring device. The point came home to me yesterday, I have three holes in a narrow strip of land and I dont want golfers able to play an easy approach to the 10th by slicing the ball onto the 12th fairway (for obvious safety and speed issues), I have bunkered the 10th green front right and the angle is slimmer if approached from the wrong angle with nastys through the back, if the golfer does not know the distance its a hard shot, if he knows the exact number its substantially easier. I probably am not going to stop stray balls but to a good player a blast to the wrong fairway and GPS, it might be easier. My point is that these devices are probably ruining some course architecture. A further point could we introduce a rule that GPS devices are not allowed on our course, or even not allow Sky Caddie to measure and plot the course?

Adrian

I have been saying this for ages.  Yardage guns offer a measure of security that one just doesn't get from yardage markers or stroke savers because the process of measuring using a gun is interactive.  The other methods are passive and we all doubt some of them sometimes and hence develop a bit of doubt generally.  This is why good caddies walk courses and do their own measurements - it is a form of backed up security.  That isn't to excuse or support traditional yardage aids, but I do think there is a difference which does lead to more confidence and thus erodes the deceptive character of shots (IE using the terrain well) which good archies try to achieve.  

Ciao

Sean - I love you Man, but this line of thinking is just bullshit. It does not make any difference on the source of the distance information:  GPS, laser, human caddie, Strokesaver, fairway markers, etc. If you are against one of them you should be against all of them. No one would ever propose that caddies be outlawed, but they help a player negotiate a course considerably more than any of the other devices. A good caddie truly understands all the tricks and nuances of a course and its greens. GPS devices can provide you with raw distance and basic feature info, but they can't calm you down when you get nervous... they can't advise you on the wind... they can't warn you about a tricky false-front or one of Adrian's hollows... they can't read the greens for you... they can't do a hundred things a human caddie can do.

All this whining about distance devices is nuts. If you don't like them don't use them. But, don't try saying that some are OK while others are not. A Skycaddie can in no way provide as much information as an experienced human caddie, and no one would ever propose that caddies be banned.

You guys don't like these devices because they are not "traditional" enough for you. I'll bet there were golfers back in the day whining that the use of caddies was spoiling Golf and making the courses play too easy!

Full Disclosure:  I own a Bushnell laser device. I find it tremendously helpful when I play a new course. But, on courses I have played more than once I don't usually need it very often. You reach a point on any course when (with repeated play) you don't need much outside input... whether it be a caddie or a GPS device. How often do you hire a caddie to guide you around a course? Not very often I would suspect. And, when you do I'll bet it's on a course that is new to you. I would also suspect that the use of GPS devices is low among golfers at courses with strong caddie programs... at a number of the courses I've visited it's the caddies using the devices!

[Tim_Cronin]

By Sky Caddies (UK) I mean the hand held devices that tell you its X to the pin. To me they are ruining some things that I am doing within my architecture, my current new course I am building is a quirky affair whilst basically flat has lots of grassy hollows, humps and moundings to conceal the green (you can still see the flag) from some sides, I have introduced hollows infront of greens to deceive the player, wider greens that appear nearer but how can I trick all you golfers if you have a measuring device. The point came home to me yesterday, I have three holes in a narrow strip of land and I dont want golfers able to play an easy approach to the 10th by slicing the ball onto the 12th fairway (for obvious safety and speed issues), I have bunkered the 10th green front right and the angle is slimmer if approached from the wrong angle with nastys through the back, if the golfer does not know the distance its a hard shot, if he knows the exact number its substantially easier. I probably am not going to stop stray balls but to a good player a blast to the wrong fairway and GPS, it might be easier. My point is that these devices are probably ruining some course architecture. A further point could we introduce a rule that GPS devices are not allowed on our course, or even not allow Sky Caddie to measure and plot the course?

The caddie will tell you everything you need to know. I do hope you're in favor of him!

[Sean_A]

By Sky Caddies (UK) I mean the hand held devices that tell you its X to the pin. To me they are ruining some things that I am doing within my architecture, my current new course I am building is a quirky affair whilst basically flat has lots of grassy hollows, humps and moundings to conceal the green (you can still see the flag) from some sides, I have introduced hollows infront of greens to deceive the player, wider greens that appear nearer but how can I trick all you golfers if you have a measuring device. The point came home to me yesterday, I have three holes in a narrow strip of land and I dont want golfers able to play an easy approach to the 10th by slicing the ball onto the 12th fairway (for obvious safety and speed issues), I have bunkered the 10th green front right and the angle is slimmer if approached from the wrong angle with nastys through the back, if the golfer does not know the distance its a hard shot, if he knows the exact number its substantially easier. I probably am not going to stop stray balls but to a good player a blast to the wrong fairway and GPS, it might be easier. My point is that these devices are probably ruining some course architecture. A further point could we introduce a rule that GPS devices are not allowed on our course, or even not allow Sky Caddie to measure and plot the course?

Adrian

I have been saying this for ages.  Yardage guns offer a measure of security that one just doesn't get from yardage markers or stroke savers because the process of measuring using a gun is interactive.  The other methods are passive and we all doubt some of them sometimes and hence develop a bit of doubt generally.  This is why good caddies walk courses and do their own measurements - it is a form of backed up security.  That isn't to excuse or support traditional yardage aids, but I do think there is a difference which does lead to more confidence and thus erodes the deceptive character of shots (IE using the terrain well) which good archies try to achieve.  

Ciao

Sean - I love you Man, but this line of thinking is just bullshit. It does not make any difference on the source of the distance information:  GPS, laser, human caddie, Strokesaver, fairway markers, etc. If you are against one of them you should be against all of them. No one would ever propose that caddies be outlawed, but they help a player negotiate a course considerably more than any of the other devices. A good caddie truly understands all the tricks and nuances of a course and its greens. GPS devices can provide you with raw distance and basic feature info, but they can't calm you down when you get nervous... they can't advise you on the wind... they can't warn you about a tricky false-front or one of Adrian's hollows... they can't read the greens for you... they can't do a hundred things a human caddie can do.

All this whining about distance devices is nuts. If you don't like them don't use them. But, don't try saying that some are OK while others are not. A Skycaddie can in no way provide as much information as an experienced human caddie, and no one would ever propose that caddies be banned.

You guys don't like these devices because they are not "traditional" enough for you. I'll bet there were golfers back in the day whining that the use of caddies was spoiling Golf and making the courses play too easy!

Full Disclosure:  I own a Bushnell laser device. I find it tremendously helpful when I play a new course. But, on courses I have played more than once I don't usually need it very often. You reach a point on any course when (with repeated play) you don't need much outside input... whether it be a caddie or a GPS device. How often do you hire a caddie to guide you around a course? Not very often I would suspect. And, when you do I'll bet it's on a course that is new to you. I would also suspect that the use of GPS devices is low among golfers at courses with strong caddie programs... at a number of the courses I've visited it's the caddies using the devices!

Whitty

I don't think yardage aids are ok other than from the perspective of I have to put up them because I will be long dead before they are banned.  You say just ignore them, but at some places its damn near impossible when they are tagged all over the fairway.  Of course, in the UK it is usually much easier to avoid yardage markers.  I also don't think caddies should be allowed to give advice, but that ain't gonna change either.  Again, that said, I still believe once a guy is proficient with his yardage gun he will trust it more than any other yardage aid because he is shooting the yardage and that to me is a more comforting factor especially if he is out of position.  To me, the net result result will be the continuing dumbing down of architecture.  My reasoning is the more things that get between the player and hitting the shot the more we get away from the game of golf.  

You are right, I rarely use caddies.  I am a social player and thus don't need the expertise and I certainly don't want to pay for it.  I recall my caddie at Merion asking me how I knew the yardages because I didn't ask him and it was my first go.  My reply was simple - I didn't know the yardages - it was guess work.  Too many people treat golf like some sort of battle and are looking for ways to get leg up rather than going to the range, walking the course, visiting the putting and earning that advantage - or heaven forbid just admit that they are a social golfer and not able to compete properly.  Its a great pity, but that is the way of the world these days.

Ciao  

[Dan Herrmann]

what's the difference between a GPS caddy and a human caddy?  They'll both provide a good yardage, but other than that, the human offers a LOT more than the GPS.

Have human caddies ruined architecture?

[Sean_A]

what's the difference between a GPS caddy and a human caddy?  They'll both provide a good yardage, but other than that, the human offers a LOT more than the GPS.

Have human caddies ruined architecture?

Dan

Nothing ruins architecture, but things can either enhance or detract from architecture.  IMO being told the pitfalls, having yardages at your finger tips and having your putts read for you cheapens one's interaction with architecture and thus dumbs the game down.  In a way, I would prefer if caddies were the main stay of info because then courses wouldn't be saturated with info and those not wanting the info could just get on with playing. 

Ciao   

[Dan Herrmann]

Sean - good point.

[Michael Whitaker]

You are right, I rarely use caddies.  I am a social player and thus don't need the expertise and I certainly don't want to pay for it.  I recall my caddie at Merion asking me how I knew the yardages because I didn't ask him and it was my first go.  My reply was simple - I didn't know the yardages - it was guess work.  Too many people treat golf like some sort of battle and are looking for ways to get leg up rather than going to the range, walking the course, visiting the putting and earning that advantage - or heaven forbid just admit that they are a social golfer and not able to compete properly.  Its a great pity, but that is the way of the world these days.

Ciao

Sean - Again, I love you, but this is more hogwash!!! Every golfer wants to have some idea of the challenge presented to him. On a new course (one you have never played) the excitement of learning what is over the next hill is a wonderful adventure. But, a short lasting one. At some point a player learns the subtle (and not so subtle) challenges of a given course, at which point golf becomes almost exclusively about achieving a comparative level of success. I can see where playing "in the dark" (as you propose that you do) would present a type of personal satisfaction, but at the end of the day the object is to get the ball from Point A to Point B in fewer strokes than your opponent. Golf is not about judging whether you can "guess-timate" the distance of a given shot better than I can. It is about executing the shot at hand to the best of your ability with whatever information is available to you at the time. You want the available information to be limited to what the golfer can see with his eyes. Fair enough. But, this form of golf has not been played since a caddie first gave advice to his player back in the days of yore. Once that boundary was crossed it opened the door to everything else that has followed. If caddies (and their electronic cousins) did not enhance the golfing experience for most players they would have faded away long ago. I do not have a problem with a player trying to gather as much information as possible to help him with his decision making process (as long as it is done in a timely fashion) because I'm convinced golf is not just about leap frogging from one place to the next. It is about making decisions based on your personal experience and talent, and no caddie, GPS or laser device can improve either.

I would make the argument that GPS devices could help bring back design features that have gone out of vogue, like blind shots. Blind shots would not be as offensive to so many golfers if they could "see" over the hill with a GPS device. What about firm & fast courses? As you well know, playing a F&F course completely transcends distance-only decision making. I would also argue that as a player becomes more familiar with a course he requires less and less input from an outside source.

Playing the "pure" form of golf you do is fun. It is the way I played when I first took up the game. But, you know what? On the course that I played regularly I knew how far a shot was from a given tree, rock or fencepost. It took a lot of trial and error, but I figured it out eventually. But knowing these distances did not detract from my golfing experience or cause me to become bored with the course. Just the opposite, it allowed me to focus on the other parts of the challenge at hand... which I did not always do when I was so focused on determining the distance.

I'm signing off now as I am leaving for jolly ole London in the morning and I must pack.

Stay pure, Sean... it's what we love about you!!!

Cheers!

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